Standard length vs "epic"

[Zed10R]

All,

Recently I came across a thread where someone had posted that their favorite song was 30 minutes long and they loved every minute of it. That got me thinking.....what purpose is served by writing songs that are that long...or even longer? Is it musical masterbation? Is it an excercise in supreme talent and skill? Is it done to cater to a fan base that prefers such things?

Why would you want to take 30 minutes to say something that can be said in 5....or less? Or am I missing something? My guess is that most of those folks are musical theatre types....not that there's anyrhing WRONG with that...*gag*...

[Joepie]

Some things just can't be said in 5 mins.

Imagine trying to summarize Beethoven's Brandenburger concertos into a 3 minute radio edit



edit: Although I have to admit 'inagaddadavida'' could've done with a few minutes less

[mikeh]

I don't know what 30 minute song was referenced in the previous post - but I have to assume there was about 25 minutes of extended musical sections. I do tend to agree that a 30 minute pop/rock song may likely get into the realm of masterbation (if there are extended intrumental solos, etc.)

I have heard some long clasical pieces that included numerous movements which reflected intelligent composition, which justified the time. There are a few longer rock/pop songs (Allman Brothers and Moody Blues come to mind) that had well defined sections which required more time and perhaps justified the song length. Then there are songs like In A Gadda Da Vida that simply sound like an acid trip gone bad.

I'm a fan of a well crafted 3 minute song. If I can't say it in 3-4 minutes, then it's time for a re-write.

[MadAudio]

It was probably "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. It takes up one entire side on vinyl.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by Joepie

edit: Although I have to admit 'inagaddadavida'' could've done with a few minutes less

Heresy!!!

[Freddy]

I'm not sure why we are so attuned to the 2-4 minute song, but we are.

I believe that, like most things (**see example below), it started off as a limitation of technology - I am pretty sure that was the maximum length you could fit on an Amberol cyclinder... and the rest is history!

I suppose there is no reason why songs shouldn't be longer - but they had better be able to keep the listener's attention, either through telling a story or through some exceptional music.

I think it's now simply a cultural demand - and I quite like that, as it encourages some discipline and rigorous editing (or it should, sadly it doesn't always).




Nother example of technology driving things....

On the Space Shuttle there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank.

These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory had to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel, which was not much wider than the track.

The standard railroad gauge is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an odd number.

It is based on the English standard (English engineers were heavily involved in the US railway), which was set that way because English railways were built by the same people who built tramways, who also used to build horse-drwan wagons and used the same tools and jigs for both jobs.

Horse drawn wagons were set to that size so that they would fit ruts in the road and not break their axles or wheels. Those ruts were first created by Roman war chariots.

So, the width of a railway derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman war chariot. The Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Thus, a railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So, the major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's arse!

[Joepie]

Cool!

(ten chars)

[songwritten]

If someone today were to make a 25 minute song that was likeable....they would be an OUTSTANDING artist. Look at most successful people who have done songs that are that long....Beethoven...Bach...Pink Floyd....these are arguably GREAT musicians. (Some might disagree). I think the reason why there aren't more 25 minute songs is because most musicians these days fall quite short of brilliant. (Besides the obvious that no radio station will play it).

Think about it like this...If you were to write a 25 minute song...and wanted to have different pieces throughout....you LITERALLY couldn't have ONE weak spot in the song or someone would turn it off. Each part of the song would have to be a masterpiece inside itself. It would be tough work and I for one am NOT up to that kind of challenge.....right now anyways.

[steve.h]

Personally, I think it really depends on what the artist is trying to express. If you're trying to make a "pop" song (e.g. something made to be listened to on the way to work/on the radio/on MTV/live/etc.), it's very unlikely you'll hold anyone's attention for more than 3-4 minutes. The only way a 20+ minute song will work is in movements, whether proper movements like in classical music, or in figurative movements within the song.

That said, when it comes to my own personal musical endeavors, I find it hard to keep a song under 4-5 minutes. I like complicated songs, though

[Zed10R]

All very good thoughts...I liked the one about the hores's ass....

Cultural expectations....that could be...I have to admit that there are songs that hold my attenetion for a long time...but I always expect more than one song to have passed.

A lot of my dislike for epics is due to horrid examples.

[nukeitout]

I consider Dream Theater's album, Scenes from a Memory, one long song. It is arranged to tell a story, and if you have the original CD, the music does not stop through the whole album, it's just one long song that progresses from one 'scene' to the next.

You could argue that it's just a bunch of songs with good transitions, but I could argue that a verse and a chorus are actually different songs along the same lines...

I just wanted to throw that in there for ppl to chew on...