Selling my songs - question and need advice

[skimo]

Hello,
I make music as a hobby and am by no means a professional producer.
However, last week a producer approached me and wanted to "buy my music". They took 3 of my tracks , re-arranged them, added some vocals and turned them into professional sounding songs. They are now en-route to be mastered...
The producer wants to offer me money for this (how nice of him). However, I have no idea of what price to set! They do not want to put me on a percentage-of-sales type contract but instead want to buy the copyrights outright.
They are offering $700 (US) per track. Part of me feels like this price is a joke, the other part of me is appreciative that this opportunity even crossed my path!
That said, what is the average "street price" out there for songs? I have been searching the net for days with no answer.

The songs are about 3.5 mins long, and had to be re-arranged and professionally edited. They are planning on adding these to an Album that is going to be published. Also, this is all happening in Canada (but I am in the US).

Any advice, is appreciated. Even a ball-park on price. Feel free to private message me if you wish.

ps - i need to reach a decision within a few days

Thanks in advance
kimo

[azraelswings]

I should mention that I have never sold a song. So understand that I really dont know much about the subject. However, I'm quite sure that if someone offered me a flat rate to buy a copyright outright, I'd have choice words for them. These choice words would likely rhyme with 'truck off.'

My favorite anecdote for this is that the copyright for the song 'Macarena' was sold for around $600 (US). However factual, I don't know, but the the standing advice I've heard is 'Dont. Sell. A song. Outright.'

Best of luck, congrats on the interest.

[Sal4001]

The time to negotiate a price is BEFORE you have given them your songs. NEVER sell a song "OUTRIGHT". Get an upfront fee, a percentage of sales of the album, and sign a licensing agreement allowing them to use YOUR songs. Never sell away your rights to YOUR songs. They are YOURS. Don't let the feelling of appreciation for the opportunity that has crossed your path cloud your judgement about what you should be paid. Don't sell a song outright. Always maintain ownership of your copyrights. License their use-don't sell.

[Freddy]

One thing that occurs to me. They have invested a fair bit of time and money in the use of your material already (arrangement, vocals, tracking, mixing and now mastering).

They also have a deadline. You don't.

I suspect that you are in a fairly strong bargaining position, and while you don't want to be unreasonable, they certainly don't hold all the cards.

I wouldn't be afraid to negotiate.

(Oh.. and congratulations by the way! Must be a great feeling )

[skimo]

Thanks for all the advice!

The problem is that they are in canada while I am in the US. This makes negotiation a bit difficult over the phone. However, like Freddy mentioned, they have spent lots of time and money on the tracks. I heard they hired a pianist, a violinist and a guitar player to professionally record some of the takes. (mine were done on a synth! )

However, since the tracks sound "so different" now, a friend of mine mentioned that he is suprised they offered me something instead of just "stealing it". I never understood that fine legal line in music that determines what is a new art and what it is an infringement.


In my last conversation they mentioned they would add my name as the artist on the cd album. I am assuming this means they are not planning to buy the rights outright, and are just after the license.

Assuming the producers wont budge on the percentage sales route( 98% chance), how much should I ask for licensing agreement to use my songs? And do those agreemends usually say something along the lines of "thow shall use yer songs in any thy want" ?

Again, thanks for everyone's help on this.

kimo

[antichef]

pay attention to who owns the copyright for the songs after the transaction (you or them), and what rights you still have -- are you keeping the copyright and giving a license to them, or is it the other way around? What are the specifics of the licenses granted? These are non-intuitive concepts, but it's best to get a sense of it sooner rather than later.

[azraelswings]

Making a percentage deal is actually a lot easier than it sounds. They tell you how many copies of the recording they want to press, and you make a license for that many copies for such and such a price, further printings requiring further negotiation. Just make sure you own the song rights when all is said and done.

[Nicole_Rose]

buy and read this book immediately. "The Complete Handbook of Songwriting" bye Mark and Cathy Ligget.

but i'll give you some of the high points.

here's a bit of advice from the book on making deals.

although it's true that writer and publisher should split every dollar made fifty fifty, many times that's on the net receipts. So be aware of what royalty percentage terms are outlined in your contract.

with a time reversion clause the songwriter's tune reverts back to him or her if the publisher hasn't been able to get the song recorded and released within an agreed upon period of time.

the person or company maintaining the publishing administration is responsible for filing the copyright forms, making foreign deals with subpublishers, and handling the day to day business of the copyright.
if someone has 100 percent of the publishing they automatically become the administrator of the publishing. However, if the publishing is split up, the administrator will be designated (usually from among the copyright owners) and will normally receive an extra 10 percent.

[stetto]

There is not a professional songwriter out there who would go into negotiations with a publisher or artist WITHOUT AN INDUSTRY ATTORNEY...If your $700 song were one day to be the jingle for Budweiser, guess what you'd get for that--The priviledge to brag, and that's it...Talk to an effin' attorney, 'nuff sed...

The guy who wrote "Santa Monica Blvd" was paid some stupid amount like $100 for the song--He was broke and was taken advantage of...He was later paid some hefty royalties, but only because the song was a huge hit and the record company was shamed into paying up....NOT out of the goodness of their hearts...

Talk to a lawyer.

Eric

[mikeh]

First question - have you already filed for copyright on the 3 songs (before they started to produce them)? This at least gives you some protection while you ponder what to do.

It certainly would have been better if you understood the financial issues up front before you "gave away" your material. However, since these people have committed money to the material and have offered you something, it could suggest they are legit and perhaps your rights have not yet been compromised (assuming you do have a copyright filed).

I agree that since they already have time and money into this, they may not want to abort if you try to negotiate. The advice to talk to an attorney makes perfect sense - however, a good entertainment law attorney can be very pricey (let's assume about $250 per hour) - so you could spend more than you may earn. Since you don't have an actual contract for an attorney to read, he/she would have to contact these people, an agreement would be drafted, etc. etc. and you would likely see at least $2,000 in legal bills.

While I do agree that no writer should sign away the copyright if it can be avoided - there are other things to consider. While there are certainly cases where someone sold song rights for very little money only to have the song make someone else a lot of money - the fact is, the chances of a song going on to make large amounts of money can very very, very slim.

I made a decision long ago that sometimes, I had to give away some songs to get my foot in certain doors. At the time, I made a few hundred bucks (which I needed) and was willing to take a chance that it was better to have some money than 100% or song rights for something that was simply collecting dust. That decision was the right one, for me, at the time. Keep in mind, there is a huge difference between a song being recorded and published and the song actually making money,

So, I sold some songs cheap, which helped me move up the ladder. I must admit that I have made more from songs that I kept the rights to and now receive quarterly checks from publishers and/or BMI - but I don't regret selling some songs for $100 (or whatever amount) and to my knowledge, those songs never made anyone else rich.

Only you know how good your songs are, if the people who are producing the recordings have real industry connections and if there is any real chance that the songs will grow legs. Is it better to make less now, to develop a relationship which some people who may be able to help you in the long run - vs. trying to play hardball now, maybe having them wlak away and you end up with nothing? Only you can make sthat decision!

There are several publishers that put together composite CDs of several songs which they shop around hoping someone will have interest in one or more songs. Some of these publishers are willling to invest money in re-recording while most want "mastered" material which they can simply present as is (without haveing to put money into it). My experiance has been that the writters either sign licensing agreements or a standard publishing agreement (normally a 50/50 split on any licensing).

I guess what I'm saying is that it can be very easy for others to say never give up your copyright, etc. - but they don't know what your speficic situation is. Sometimes you have to give something to get something.

That being said - if they have offered $700 per song, at very least I would ask $2,000 per song and negotiate down if needed - and if you are in that price range, them maybe you can afford a lawyer.