Curious about speaker replacement

[gibson59neck]

I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe that I've been playing thru 2-4hrs/night, 2x/week, for about four years. I haven't done anything to it, and until recently I have been getting a great sound out of it. I am wondering about putting in an Eminence 12" speaker (called the Blue Tick Hound) supposedly more designed for metal and heavy, hard rock, and also about getting new tubes - anyone have any experience with these or similar Eminence speakers? Also wonder if there are better tubes than 6L6's and 12ax7's for my amp or should I just replace those with the same thing. Let me know if ya know??? Thanks!

[c7sus]

http://www.thetubestore.com/12ax70ectyp.html

http://www.thetubestore.com/6l65881types.html

Or try these for Class A-type sounds:

http://www.thdelectronics.com/produc...low_jacket.htm

[mrface2112]

I had an excellent experience ordering from Eurotubes. www.eurotubes.com. they're in Portland or something in the pacific NW. their website's got a lot of great info and the folks there were ultra friendly.

the JJ's i put in my Champ and ValveJr really made a huge difference.

as for the speaker.....i can't comment on the Eminence.....but I can strongly vouch for Ted Weber and his speakers. www.webervst.com.


cheers,
wade

[gcapel]

I highly advise the jensen mod series speakers. I have the mod 12 50 watt's. They sound soo much better than my 1960 marshall cab. They are cheap too. It's a no brainer.

[steve.h]

Before you start throwing money around, you'll need to describe the problem you're having in detail.

If all of a sudden you've noticed a tremendous loss of volume from one of the speakers, especially in the lower ranges, you've most likely lost a speaker. To test this, play something at a reasonable volume (cue "milton" voice from office space), and put your head next to each speaker (assuming a multi-speaker amp). If they don't sound pretty much the same, the speaker is most likely the problem.

If you've noticed, over time, that you've had to turn the volume and/or gain knob higher and higher to get the same sound, your tubes are going out. I highly recommend this guy: www.dougstubes.com . He's the most helpful guy I've ever talked to, and he stocks some extremely high-quality tubes!

There are a range of less common reasons your tone may be degrading, including problems with the electronics in your guitar, a bad cable, a problem with the wiring in the amp, etc.

Good luck!

[gibson59neck]

I think it's all just a matter of trying to get metal sounds out of an amplifier not designed to create those types of sounds. My guitars, effects, and cables are all in perfect working order - in fact, I just replaced my two cables with Monster Standards, which initially several weeks ago gave me a whole new perspective on clean sound. The amp is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, has a single 12" Jensen speaker in it, along with three 12ax7's and two 6L6's. It has 40 all tube watts, and can be loud as hell effectively for the right style of music.The problem is that the sound is very woofy, as if the whole cabinet cannot handle the distortion I'm putting thru it at the volume we play. For what it's worth, our band plays covers of Pantera, Slipknot, Alice in Chains, early Soundgarden, Marilyn Manson, etc, and our originals are relatively complicated metal with big chunky riffs...

We already adjusted our guitar/bass volumes to a humane level, and that included the drummer realizing that he cannot play like Animal from the muppets because it is just too loud...I just think it's time to get into a half stack and stop trying to get "water from a stone", so to speak. To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen metal/heavy rockers using small, single speaker amps. Perhaps if we practiced thru a big PA, I could mike it, but we don't so I can't. At low, non-band practice levels, I still get a really good sound out of it, so it's entirely possible that its all fine inside - although I've now heard from many that the power tubes usually need replacement in a year, and it's all 4 yrs old and original...Even still, it seems to me that it's the wrong amp for the job. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or like racing against a hot rod with a Tercel.

I've already resigned to the idea of getting into a B-52 Solid State head and 4x12 cab, which I've already had some experience with. It has tube emulation, and yes I know it's not really tubes but hey, I'm not rich and can't have it all, right??? (The B-52 Half stack, which sells for only $599, can be seen here musiciansfriend.com or guitarcenter.com , and the reviews of it are great.) I think that with my guitars ( Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2002; Ibanez RG, and Epiphone Nuclear Extreme LP copy) and my pedal ( Boss GT8) I will be able to get some real nice thick distortions with a lot of bottom.

Thnks anyway for your inputs, y'alls!

gib59

[steve.h]

B-52? Well, I suppose that'll work: personally, I try to buy older used gear as often as possible, because it usually won't depreciate in value (since it already has), and I can get a lot more for my money! I think you'll lose a bunch of $$$ tryin' to sell that B-52 a year or two down the road when you want to upgrade to something better, vs. getting a decent say 5150 and a Marshall Cab. You'll spend a little bit more up front, but you'll get it all back when you sell it!

*Edit: Also, even with tube "emulation", it'll still start to sound awful as soon as you start to push it volume-wise. Solid-state amps start to crackle and sound just sad when turned up really loud, vs. tube amps will get more saturated and awesome.

*Edit2: Also also (hah), using a pedal for distortion isn't the greatest plan either, sound-wise

[gibson59neck]

I've been looking at used stuff all along, but unless I take it to the band room and try it, I'll never know. It's prettyt much a big pain in the ass to go to a shop, take a bunch of used heads and switch them all around with various cabs...I dunno - Maybe if I wasn't so lazy...

Spending much more than the $650ish for the B-52 is not possible either. If it sounds as good and is built as tough as I've heard, I probably won't need to upgrade. (I'm only in this to do local stuff for fun, not to become the next Staind...if someone notices and wants to make us more serious, then I'll start looking at fancy rigs....!!!)

[Outlaws]

I wouldn't retube or swap speakers. That is good if you like the tone to start with and you know what you are looking for by doing the change, but if you want a more metal sound and it doesn't currently give you what you want, then you won't find it with swapping tubes/speakers.

A suggestion for an amp to try...Laney. I have never played one before, but everyone who likes Marshalls says they are all that and bag of chips...just half the price.

[ocnor]

Your best bet would be to get a 4X12 cab first and plug your Fender into it. After that I doubt that you will want a B-52 anymore.

[gibson59neck]

Originally Posted by Outlaws

I wouldn't retube or swap speakers. That is good if you like the tone to start with and you know what you are looking for by doing the change, but if you want a more metal sound and it doesn't currently give you what you want, then you won't find it with swapping tubes/speakers.

A suggestion for an amp to try...Laney. I have never played one before, but everyone who likes Marshalls says they are all that and bag of chips...just half the price.

I had a guy in the band for about two weeks that thought HE was all that and a bag of chips, and he used his Laney like a weapon against the rest of us. He stood with his feet about 6 feet apart, wore half shirts, and shook his hair like a true 80's metal jerk-off, and his amp was way too loud. It sounded like ass, but maybe because he had a cheap little pod thing and had no idea what to do with it. Since that time, I've had an emotional allergy to Laney.

[gibson59neck]

Originally Posted by ocnor

Your best bet would be to get a 4X12 cab first and plug your Fender into it. After that I doubt that you will want a B-52 anymore.

This, however, I might try. So I could set the Fender near me as a monitor of sorts, and use the cab for a better metal sound???? HMMMM....

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by gibson59neck

use the cab for a better metal sound???? HMMMM....

So you are just lacking bottom end in your sound?

Originally Posted by gibson59neck

This, however, I might try. So I could set the Fender near me as a monitor of sorts, and use the cab for a better metal sound???? HMMMM....

You have to check what the ohms are. I think the stock speaker is 8ohms, so you would need a cab that is 8ohms. The amp should say "minimum 4 ohm load" because you are going to have two parallel 8 ohm loads on it.

Just as long as the "minimum" is half the value and not equal to the stock speaker, you won't have to replace the stock speaker to pull this off.

[jimistone]

Originally Posted by gibson59neck

I think it's all just a matter of trying to get metal sounds out of an amplifier not designed to create those types of sounds.

I agree 100%

I have a "modified" Hot Rod Deville that I LOVE, it has fantastic blues tone, classic rock tone, and clean tones to die for....but a "metal amp" it ain't

[soundchaser59]

You didn't say which Jensen speaker is in it.....probably a C12N 50 watt.

You can try the C12K 100 watt. But I like the Eminence Tonker and Swamp Thang better, with the Cannabis Rex being my favorite. For brute force distortion you'll love the Tonker. Nothing can touch it.

But dont ever discount the quality and impact of a Weber Michigan. They need more break in time, but they are well worth it.

If you ahve money to burn, then look at EV's and Tone Tubby's.

[gibson59neck]

Originally Posted by soundchaser59

You didn't say which Jensen speaker is in it.....probably a C12N 50 watt.

You can try the C12K 100 watt. But I like the Eminence Tonker and Swamp Thang better, with the Cannabis Rex being my favorite. For brute force distortion you'll love the Tonker. Nothing can touch it.

But dont ever discount the quality and impact of a Weber Michigan. They need more break in time, but they are well worth it.

If you ahve money to burn, then look at EV's and Tone Tubby's.

THe Jensen is the stock one that it came with - which I would know if it was here and not in my band room...Have you heard of the Eminence Blue Tick Hound??? I saw it on musiciansfriend.
All I know is that when I turn up enough to cut thru, it woofs. No amount of tweaking my amp or my pedal or even the guitar has made it stop woofing. That is how I can describe it - it sounds like the amp is vibrating itself to death, as if it might just split in half...

[Farview]

If you have a Laney, you dont need anything in front of it, that was his mistake.

You will never get a metal sound out of a fender amp, they just weren't made for it. If you are using some sort of all-in-one pedalboard in front of it, you are just making it worse.

The sounds of the guys in Soundgarder and alice in chains come from Marshalls and bogners. Slipknot is using boogies, pantera was old randalls (not to be confused with the new garbage).

If you are going to go with amp emulation, just get a power amp and a cabinet.

If you are trying to get the sound out of the amp itself, get a good amp that was made to make that kind of sound.

The B-52's are crap and a waste of money.

[steve.h]

Yeah man if you want to have a big awesome metal sound, you basically need a big awesome metal amp. Mesa-Boogie, Framus, Marshall, or on the less expensive side 5150's. Save up your money and get a real amp: don't mess with that solid state garbage man. You'll thank me later, I accept paypal or Visa

[IronFlippy]

5150s are selling for real cheap on Ebay now, between 500 and 600 USD. They'd probably be your best bet now.

[soundchaser59]

Originally Posted by gibson59neck

THe Jensen is the stock one that it came with - which I would know if it was here and not in my band room...Have you heard of the Eminence Blue Tick Hound??? I saw it on musiciansfriend.
All I know is that when I turn up enough to cut thru, it woofs. No amount of tweaking my amp or my pedal or even the guitar has made it stop woofing. That is how I can describe it - it sounds like the amp is vibrating itself to death, as if it might just split in half...

Fender is pretty good about not putting speakers in their amps that cause resonance issues, which is what you are describing when you say it sounds like it is "gonna vibrate itself to death"....resonance can be thought of as a sympathetic vibration, the speaker inducing even more vibration in itself and/or the cabinet at a specific frequency.

Does it still do that if you run the guitar directly into it with all the tone knobs at 9 or 10 o'clock and no pedals or boosters or EQ of any kind?? If so, then I woudl retube first, that's the cheapest solution. But I dont think changing the speaker will solve this problem, it will only make the same problem happen at a different frequency. Find and fix the resonance problem first, then change the speaker if you still dont like the sound.......then save your $$$ for a metal amp.

[rayc]

Get an original little pignose & run through it as a pre for your fender - It'll sound great (but not hypermetallic red sorry).

[Farview]

Originally Posted by soundchaser59

Fender is pretty good about not putting speakers in their amps that cause resonance issues, which is what you are describing when you say it sounds like it is "gonna vibrate itself to death"....resonance can be thought of as a sympathetic vibration, the speaker inducing even more vibration in itself and/or the cabinet at a specific frequency.

It might do it if he is using a pedal to get most of his distortion and he has all the mids sucked out. I've had people come in here with their pedals tweaked like that. It sounded like the speakers crapped out no matter which (known good) cabinet I ran it through.

[soundchaser59]

Originally Posted by Farview

It might do it if he is using a pedal to get most of his distortion and he has all the mids sucked out. I've had people come in here with their pedals tweaked like that. It sounded like the speakers crapped out no matter which (known good) cabinet I ran it through.

Agree.....there is something else going on here, not the speaker....

[steve.h]

Originally Posted by soundchaser59

Agree.....there is something else going on here, not the speaker....

I seriously doubt anybody actually reads the entire thread anymore. We've already stated using a small fender combo amp in a band practice setting is not the best, or even a good choice for metal. You need a real amp with real tube distortion. Most likely, he's running a mediocre pedal with the mids scooped and the bass/treble way up and trying to turn it as loud as he can. Most metal guitarists go through that stage (I did!). It takes a while for one to really understand where great metal tone comes from. It's the mids that really add balls and loudness to the sound. Scooping them out makes it much, much harder for a single- or dual-speaker cabinet to cut through the mush of the other instruments, especially at high-volume.

He needs a half-stack, preferably with tubes instead of solid-state crap.