Mixing the Bass in contrast to vocals

[yetipur]

Hello,
I am new to mixing, I am wondering if anyone has any tips for mixing bass and Kick in contrast to vocals??
Bass and Kick seems to always be my confusion!
The song I am trying to mix is pretty sparse in actuality but it is coming off in the mix as crowded. Its crowding out the vocals.

Is the bass usually kept in the center?

Generally Should the Bass and Kick be panned together in the same area ?

Is it a good idea to have the bass and kick be down the center with the vocals?
In the case of this song I am mixing, The vocals are melodic.
The bass line is very in line with the kick, it is not a melodic bass line, it is more of a punchy and accented bass line much like a walking bass line and the bass hits every kick. Medium to slow tempo with a 1 2 beat (kick snare kick snare)

Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boombboom tomtomtom
Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boomboom tomtomtom

The song has a walking feeling .

[peritus]

Originally Posted by yetipur

Hello,
I am new to mixing, I am wondering if anyone has any tips for mixing bass and Kick in contrast to vocals??
Bass and Kick seems to always be my confusion!
The song I am trying to mix is pretty sparse in actuality but it is coming off in the mix as crowded. Its crowding out the vocals.

Is the bass usually kept in the center?

Yes

Originally Posted by yetipur

Generally Should the Bass and Kick be panned together in the same area ?

Is it a good idea to have the bass and kick be down the center with the vocals?

Yes.. The common way is down the center... Low frequencies generally lack directional qualities (aka you wouldn't be able to tell what direction they were coming from anyway).. There are exceptions.. Beatles stuff comes to mind..

Lead vocals in the center is also the preferred method... A focal point, if you will..

Originally Posted by yetipur

In the case of this song I am mixing, The vocals are melodic.
The bass line is very in line with the kick, it is not a melodic bass line, it is more of a punchy and accented bass line much like a walking bass line and the bass hits every kick. Medium to slow tempo with a 1 2 beat (kick snare kick snare)

Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boombboom tomtomtom
Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boomboom tomtomtom

The song has a walking feeling .

Check this out.. Especially the section on ducking the bass..

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/prin..._relationship/

[iqi616]

I have two suggestions... find some commercial CDs with similar instrumentation and compare with your mix (adjust the CD volume for similar loudness to your mix). Also, I'd probably push the bass a tad to the left (less than 11 o'clock) and the vocal a tad to the right (less than 1 o'clock).

[peritus]

Originally Posted by iqi616

I have two suggestions... find some commercial CDs with similar instrumentation and compare with your mix (adjust the CD volume for similar loudness to your mix). Also, I'd probably push the bass a tad to the left (less than 11 o'clock) and the vocal a tad to the right (less than 1 o'clock).

I'm curious about your reasoning...

If the bass gets moved to the left, it seems to me that the situation wouldn't improve. The attack of the bass would come before the kick attack and the kick attack would be still be competing with the rest of the bass note's envelope (which is pretty horizontal)....

It would seem move logical to more the bass a little to the right, effectively giving the kick attack more "room", since it would then be competing with the end of the bass note's envelope....

[iqi616]

Sorry, I meant panning, not time-shifting.

[Dogbreath]

Yetipur...

I usually set my kick, bass and main vocals in the center. It sounds like this might be more of an EQ situation rather than panning. There's alot of different thoughts on this but generally, make sure the kick and bass aren't taking up the same sonic space. Look at the EQ curves on both instruments and start tweaking em. Try some low cuts and see how they sound to you. I would also suggest subtractive EQ first. Boosting EQ may be just the ticket but try subtracting first.

Trust your ears, Grasshopper.

Good luck.

[Hee-man]

Eq and panning could work, but why not just turn down the bass?

[baker_]

i have heard mixes where the bass is split and hard panned left and right. It works in a lot of types of music and gives the mix a good full sound. It also frees up space in the middle for your vocals.

Are there any battling frequencies between your kick and bass or some unneeded lows coming from your vocal track? That seems to be the main solution to the problems. Make sure you dip your frequencies on your bass EQ where you've boosted frequencies on your kick....It's like a giant jigsaw puzzle of frequency control. Make sure everything has a nice slot of its own to sit in.

I dont know, just trying to throw out some suggestions.

[FALKEN]

you can pan anything anywhere, but your mix has to sound good in mono first. a weird thought- often when I think I need eq actually I need compression, and when I think I need compression I really need eq.

[AGCurry]

Originally Posted by baker_

i have heard mixes where the bass is split and hard panned left and right. It works in a lot of types of music and gives the mix a good full sound. It also frees up space in the middle for your vocals.

If the same signal is split and panned hard left and right, it is exactly the same as putting it right down the middle.

[crosstudio]

AGCurry is dead on right about copying a track and panning the same signal L and R. All you're doing is changing the volume of the track. you aren't thickening anything.

i went through a phase where i would pan the kick and bass slightly L/R of center opposite one another in the mix to try to carve out a little more space in the mix for the lead vocal (panned dead center); however, the deeper the bass groove, the less effective the panning becomes and the kick was never distiguishable from a panning perspective, so i've since scrapped the idea.

[peritus]

I'm very surprised that no one else seems to be a proponent of ducking the bass... It's almost magical to my ears.. I've stuggled with the problem deonoted by the thread's tittle for years and ducking the bass is the most efficient and least harmful (to the original tone delivery that I have came across...

[s_amuel]

Originally Posted by peritus

I'm very surprised that no one else seems to be a proponent of ducking the bass... It's almost magical to my ears.. I've stuggled with the problem deonoted by the thread's tittle for years and ducking the bass is the most efficient and least harmful (to the original tone delivery that I have came across...

YES! I totally agree!

I use to put a high and lowpass filter at the bass, cutting alot actually low end and highend. Maybe carve alot around 160 and boost a little around 80. Alone it sounds crap.

Together with the kick, boosted around 80 as well, both panned careful to the other side than the vocals, I start ducking the bass. (Try to set the release time in tempo, maybe 8th) I use to be careful, not ducked as an effect but to cut 4-6 dB to start with.

If you need more kick in the mix boost the attack (eq) around 2k until it stands out more - try not to increase the trackvolume if you got the body of the kick right. If you need more bottom in the basstrack move the highpass filter around and/or use a multicompressor to boost the lowend up (from 100 and down).

To get more out of the vocals give it a short reverb with alot of body, but keep the other reverb (if there is any). It sometimes helps the vocals sit better with the mix. Also use compressors. I don´t know what you got, but play around with two of them together working different and sounding different the combination could really be something extra. Or just crap Have fun!

/s

[TragikRemix]

i like to go pan crazy..

kick is always dead center. i usually make guitar go a bit one way, and bass about the equal distance the other.

mmm the fine art of a stereo image! the hassles it can cause and also avoid...

[baker_]

eek. I am sorry
What I meant to say about panning the bass is this.

Sometimes i set up a stereo bass track. I hard pan the orginal Left, and use a short delay on the bass panned hard Right. This WILL open up a hole for your vocals. The only problem with this is that you'll have to fight to get this to sound good in mono. I completey agree with FALKEN in saying that the mix has to sound good in mono first..

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by baker_

eek. I am sorry
What I meant to say about panning the bass is this.

Sometimes i set up a stereo bass track. I hard pan the orginal Left, and use a short delay on the bass panned hard Right. This WILL open up a hole for your vocals.

It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.

[baker_]

Originally Posted by chessrock

It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.

I'm just simply throwing out suggestions. I have found that this does help, but by no means was it my idea to try this. I'm open to trying new and different techniques, and this is one that i found that sounded interesting. I can't quite remember where it came from, I want to say it was one of those cheap books I was rummaging through at Border's one boring night. I think it was one of those Bill Gibson books because i remember a pretty little diagram and references to included audio tracks...

anyway. it was something i thought was interesting and tried. it worked. it jsut sounded awful in mono so i scrapped it. if someone could get it to work though, then maybe it's worth trying. i was simply passing along an idea for the pure sake of suggestion. i did not mean to harm anyone's conventional way of thinking in doing so... i guess for that, i apologize.

But really, ducking the bass works the best. it IS the least harmful method, and the most effective

[rayc]

I concur with FALKEN - set it up in mono.
Look at the EQ curve of bass & kick. Where they cross over cut from that EQ zone incrementally from one, but not both, playing as you go to see what result you get.
I'd say cut the bass. (& I'm a bassist!!)
IF you've done your subtractive EQ'ing nicely you may then wish to give the bass guitar a littleboost around 3kHz so that where it misses out in bottom it makes up in definition.
When the mud has cleared start panning minimally - but for traditions sake try to hold bass, bass drum & Vox at centre if they'll fit.

[crosstudio]

Originally Posted by chessrock

It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.

Chessrock I read this quote a few times and started thinking it over. I decided that maybe panning the bass "ghost" a little might just open up the center for the vocals.

Then i thought --->

Wait, if panning a guitar this way helps to thicken the guitar sound, then wouldn't panning a bass this way thicken the bass sound? and if so, how does that open anything up for the vocals? it wouldn't.

so I think this might be a cool way to thicken your bass sound, but I also think that if your core bass sound needs thickening maybe you need to re-record.

[baker_]

that makes a lot of sense.

i wasnt thinking.

[Dogbreath]

Not to be dense here but.....

I thought ducking was pretty much riding the fader, adjusting Volume for vocals...I'm thinking like for radio commercials where the dj is talking, then when he stops the music goes up...and comes back down when he starts talking again.
That's what we called it (ducking) when I was in radio. I assumed it was the same thing. Not sure how it'd be done using EQ....or did I miss something.................again.

[Freudian Slip]

I'd be interested to hear this. Someone said compresion, that may help alot throwing some on the vocals.

If I had to guess I would say the vocal track has some serious eq problems.
Like a major lack of top end. I have a pretty low voice and don't have this issue. It's hard for me to imagine the kick and the bass eclipsing the vocals unless the vocals are all muddy and boomy with a lack if sibilance.
Unless the bass and kick are at ungodly levels and you are compressing the whole mix while you are listening or something really odd?

I would try bumping 5k on the vocals and either adding a hi shelf or bumping 10 to 15 k with a wide q setting. Slowly work them up and see if the condition improves.

you could run a low shelf or hi pass on the bass and add some around 700 to 800hz if needed and possibley a bit at 2.5k or so for clarity. This might allow you to turn down the bass if all you are doing is mainly feeling it right now.


Shrugging shoulders.

Post a sample in the mp3 mixing clinic if you want to hear some suggestions bassed on your current mix.

Good Luck.

F.S.

[Freudian Slip]

Just for grins.

If you can, play the vocal track alone and try to take a fresh critical look at it. Have some people that don't know the song listen to it. See what they say. The mind is a powerfull thing and if you know the song and words you can think the track sounds very full, manly and totaly understandable.
In fact it may be muddy as all hell.

If you are new at mixing and you are the singer you need to think about this a bit. People tend to want to mix them selves like they hear them selves when singing. Problem is about 80% or so of what you hear is vibration coming threw the bones in your head.

It's the old answering machine thing, "I don't sound like that" .

First time I went to a studio before I started recording I had fits!
Everyone else was, no that's how you sound.

Very much a learning experiance

Anyway I thought I would throw that out because it's very common.

F.S.