Recording chain setup many questions??

[yetipur]

Hello everyone
I hope someone here might be able to help me figure out how to set up this configuration for recording. I am very confused!!

I am trying to record vocals though a pre-amp and or vocal processor onto a Fostex E-16 (16 track recorder) which uses all RCA inputs.


I am recording vocals with a good tube mic .
from the mic , (XLR) I am running through a pro-vocal processer (XLR) (to add reverb) then through a avalon pre-amp (XLR)--
the avalon pre amp is then connected (XLR) to a Fostex 16 track mixing board--

Each of the 16 tracks on the mixer
connects (RCA) to each one of the 16 tracks on the E-16 recorder. (I am recording track by track not multiple tracks live)

I have my headphones coming out of the jacks on the mixing board. and I use monitors which are connected to the mixer as well.

I am first wondering is this a good set up ? It keep getting a lot of tape hiss.
Should the vocal effects processor go before the avalon pre amp? or should the pre amp go before the vocal effects ? Or should I add the reverb effects later in the mixdown? (I dont know how to do that) but that is a different question for a different thread.

I want to run my mic through preamp and or vocal effects processor which both have an XLR connection
to the selected track ( RCA connection) on the tape recorder
using a XLR to RCA cable.

With that connection made though , now the rca connection for the chosen track I am recording , on the recorder that I normally used to connect to my mixer (via RCA) is now plugged, because it is running to the preamp via XLR. (the XLR to RCA cable) mentioned in the previous paragraph.

How will I be able to hear or monitor my input now that the mixer is not connected to the recorder because the recorder is now connected to the preamp? I dont know how to connect both the monitors or headphones and the preamp to the recorder.

The only other "outputs" on the E-16 track recorder is 1/4 inch punch out and a remote 1/4 inch output. Otherwise the remaining 15 connections are the RCAs which I have connected to the mixer.

how do I put a preamp in that path bypassing the mixing board but still have a way to monitor what i am recording? My headphones and monitor are connected to the mixer.

Is bypassing the the mixing board and all its settings and EQ's even a good idea? Should I be using the mixing board as part of the equation or should it go direct from mic to preamp to tape with no mix board?

Even if I do use the mixing board and its settings in the chain , I don't know how to do that with my set of connections.

I am not even sure how this chain should work for the best sound .

If anyone here can help I would be so thankful!!!

Stephanie

[FALKEN]

you want to go mic --> preamp --> efx --> E-16.

connect the 16 outputs of the E-16 to the mixer.

you monitor through the machines outputs to the mixer in either input or sync mode. hope this helps.

[yetipur]

Thanks so much for the reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am following your advice , so far I figured out that the bottom row of RCAs on the E-16 recorder are the outs. And that the top row are the in's.

So I hooked up the mic to the pre amp
the pre amp to the provocal effects
XLR 'd out from the provocal effects to the RCA "in" of the recorder on track 4.

Now I am trying to RCA out from the recorder' out on track four to the "tape in" on track 4 of the mixer. But I get no sound . I am having trouble with getting any sound through the headphones even though the tape led is showing a signal on the track
I am not getting it to go to the mixer still where I can hear it in the phones

I have selected input on the mixer! I have the RCA cable from the recorder out
plugged in to "TAPE IN" on track 4 on the mixing board. Is this even right?

I am reading the E-16 recorder manual and I am reading about the "input monitor selector" I cant seem to understand what this button does. My head just got fried when I pushed it in as it made a terrible brain rattling noise through my headphones. Is this part of the problem?

Am I supposed to be pushing any specific buttons to be able to monitor through my headphones?

As you can tell I don't know what the hell I am doing!!

[Tim Gillett]

It sounds like you got feedback from the mixer through the recorder and around in a loop. Especially through headphones this very loud noise can be dangerous to your health and hearing, as you probably found out.

You should not feed the output of any amplifier back into its own input or you risk getting that terrible screech, possibly damaging yourself and the equipment.
Apart from that dont know what to advise.

Cheers Tim.

[amphony]

Originally Posted by yetipur

Thanks so much for the reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am following your advice , so far I figured out that the bottom row of RCAs on the E-16 recorder are the outs. And that the top row are the in's.

So I hooked up the mic to the pre amp
the pre amp to the provocal effects
XLR 'd out from the provocal effects to the RCA "in" of the recorder on track 4.

Now I am trying to RCA out from the recorder' out on track four to the "tape in" on track 4 of the mixer. But I get no sound . I am having trouble with getting any sound through the headphones even though the tape led is showing a signal on the track
I am not getting it to go to the mixer still where I can hear it in the phones

I have selected input on the mixer! I have the RCA cable from the recorder out
plugged in to "TAPE IN" on track 4 on the mixing board. Is this even right?

I am reading the E-16 recorder manual and I am reading about the "input monitor selector" I cant seem to understand what this button does. My head just got fried when I pushed it in as it made a terrible brain rattling noise through my headphones. Is this part of the problem?

Am I supposed to be pushing any specific buttons to be able to monitor through my headphones?

As you can tell I don't know what the hell I am doing!!

What specific model mixer are you using? Typically there's a Monitor return Aux that the tape outputs are connected to. If you have the manual for the mixer it should explain how to receive the tape signal without having the mixer channels set to Tape In.

I used to use a Fostex 812 mixer, but it's been many moons since I had it to remember exactly how each channel's routing options. I currently use an Alesis Studio 32. It has monitor control on each channel, which I believe the Fostex models have. On that mixer there is a separate monitor Aux that has a switch to receive signal either from the mixer preamp or from the tape outs when just the record button is engaged (Fostex calls this Input Monitor). This might be where you made that critical error when pushing in the All Monitor button on the E-16 that almost blew your brains out. Trust me, I know that sound. I still sometimes hear it before I fall asleep. Just make sure to keep that button isn't pushed in when you hit the Record button, otherwise you will suffer the same fate.

All this being said your Input/Tape selector on the mixer should be set to Input when recording and Tape when mixing. If the channel is set to tape, yes, you will hear incoming signal, but it will pass on to the next track your recording (bouncing). Which you may want to do, but the E-16 is a very flexible machine when set up properly sounds awesome! Just ask the 80's one hit wonders A-HA. I may be dating myself on this one, but that song "Take on Me" was supposedly recorded on one (or an earlier incarnation).

[FALKEN]

what kind of efx unit is it? if it is a tc helicon or something it probably has a mic input...I think you should leave it out of the chain at first.. just go mic -- preamp -- E-16 input. also I realize my last post might have been confusing. you should get signal on the mixer when the *E-16* is in sync-record or input mode. set the machine to input for now and make sure the track is selected on the machine. you should get level at one of the inputs on your mixer. if not, I would check the cable going from the E-16 to the mixer. try a different one.

[dweeb]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

you want to go mic --> preamp --> efx --> E-16.

Does everyone concur with this chain? Seems like I've been putting the mixer in the wrong place. Maybe not. It's been a while. So, does everyone agree?

[FALKEN]

nevermind, i'm out.

[dweeb]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

nevermind, i'm out.

No disrespect intended, my good man.

[yetipur]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

what kind of efx unit is it? if it is a tc helicon or something it probably has a mic input...I think you should leave it out of the chain at first.. just go mic -- preamp -- E-16 input. also I realize my last post might have been confusing. you should get signal on the mixer when the *E-16* is in sync-record or input mode. set the machine to input for now and make sure the track is selected on the machine. you should get level at one of the inputs on your mixer. if not, I would check the cable going from the E-16 to the mixer. try a different one.

The efx unit is a dbx Pro vocal. It does have a mic input and XLR ins and outs.
I am going to leave it out of the chain and just go from the mic to the pre to the E-16 as you suggested, I think this will work . The issue is getting the preamp XLR 'd out to the RCA input on the E-16. I need a converter. (just picked one up tonight)

There is one RCA input on the E-16 ,
right below it there is another RCA for the output which I will run to the Mixer viA RCA as well .
Now my question is, where on the mixer do I connect that ?

THe mixer is a Fostex, 450 on the back of the mixing desk there are XLR inputs for each channel on the back that say will handle balanced mic input signals . How do I know if my mic signal is balanced?
there are also phone jack inputs ?
then on top of the desk at the top of each row of each channel strip
the RCA inputs are side by side (in pairs) on the top of each channel strip.
For each pair of RCA's the one on the right says "dir out" the RCA on the left says "tape in" then directly below each pair is another pair of accessory send/recieve and those say send and recieve and they are plugged up with these plastic black plugs to protect them, they are also for each channel.

then there is a input trim dial then below that there is a 3 position switch

INPUT line mic / OFF / TAPE

then a aux 1 input level control

then a input selector for aux 2 output
PRE POST TAPE
well then there is more and more dials gain pots and a 4 channel buss out assign selector and then a whole lot more.

I am getting lost already (just need to figure out the diagram)

My next question will then be concerning the effects Pro vocal , where do I plug that? On the mixer?

I am currently trying to read a home recording book reccomended here at homerecording.com as well, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions ! There is so much to learn and right now I feel like I am learning a whole new language! Just the basic connections are mind boggling me, so I really appreciate your help here! Its like everything neeeds to be explained to me in grade school terms!! Every answer leading to another question.
Steph

[yetipur]

Originally Posted by Tim Gillett

It sounds like you got feedback from the mixer through the recorder and around in a loop. Especially through headphones this very loud noise can be dangerous to your health and hearing, as you probably found out.

You should not feed the output of any amplifier back into its own input or you risk getting that terrible screech, possibly damaging yourself and the equipment.
Apart from that dont know what to advise.

Cheers Tim.

Thanks for your help but I am confused.
Is the mixer or the tape recorder "the amplifier" in this case? I fed the output of one of them into its own input?

I keep doing this when I am recording something and then I play it back to hear it .
On the mixer I have to flip a switch to tape mode to hear it playback through monitors.
If I forget to flip the switch back to "input" on the mixer and then I hit record on the tape
I do this often when I am in work fast mode and I am cueing up the place on the tape machine and boom before you know it I've hit record without flipping the switch on the mixer back to input mode.


is this a common thing? Is there a way to get around all this flip switching

[yetipur]

Originally Posted by amphony

What specific model mixer are you using? Typically there's a Monitor return Aux that the tape outputs are connected to. If you have the manual for the mixer it should explain how to receive the tape signal without having the mixer channels set to Tape In.

I used to use a Fostex 812 mixer, but it's been many moons since I had it to remember exactly how each channel's routing options. I currently use an Alesis Studio 32. It has monitor control on each channel, which I believe the Fostex models have. On that mixer there is a separate monitor Aux that has a switch to receive signal either from the mixer preamp or from the tape outs when just the record button is engaged (Fostex calls this Input Monitor). This might be where you made that critical error when pushing in the All Monitor button on the E-16 that almost blew your brains out. Trust me, I know that sound. I still sometimes hear it before I fall asleep. Just make sure to keep that button isn't pushed in when you hit the Record button, otherwise you will suffer the same fate.

All this being said your Input/Tape selector on the mixer should be set to Input when recording and Tape when mixing. If the channel is set to tape, yes, you will hear incoming signal, but it will pass on to the next track your recording (bouncing). Which you may want to do, but the E-16 is a very flexible machine when set up properly sounds awesome! Just ask the 80's one hit wonders A-HA. I may be dating myself on this one, but that song "Take on Me" was supposedly recorded on one (or an earlier incarnation).

I am using a fostex 450, I am going to look for the monitor return aux. Is it a input, button or dial? i assume it must be an input if it is to recieve a connection from the tape machine. I have to figure out if I have it set to "tape in" I am not sure.

If I set the channel to "tape" on the mixer and I hit record on the tape recorder machine I get a big ear blast! So I must be doing something wrong! I do set the channel to input when recording and tape when mixing though, what do you mean a incoming signal will pass on to the next track?

On that mixer there is a separate monitor Aux that has a switch to receive signal either from the mixer preamp or from the tape outs when just the record button is engaged (Fostex calls this Input Monitor).

Monitor aux? I have to find this .


I dont touch the "input monitor" button on the E-16 tape machine AT ALL now
yes !when you hit record and that button is pushed in no good

[amphony]

Originally Posted by yetipur

I am using a fostex 450, I am going to look for the monitor return aux. Is it a input, button or dial? i assume it must be an input if it is to recieve a connection from the tape machine. I have to figure out if I have it set to "tape in" I am not sure.

If I set the channel to "tape" on the mixer and I hit record on the tape recorder machine I get a big ear blast! So I must be doing something wrong! I do set the channel to input when recording and tape when mixing though, what do you mean a incoming signal will pass on to the next track?



Monitor aux? I have to find this .


I dont touch the "input monitor" button on the E-16 tape machine AT ALL now
yes !when you hit record and that button is pushed in no good

Try this,

1. Connect mic to preamp
2. Out of preamp to input of your impedance converter box
3. Out of impedance box to the input of E-16.
4. Arm the track you're in and hit Record button once on E-16. You should see a signal from the preamp now.
5. Connect output of E-16 to Tape In on the 450 mixer.
6. Set Input/off/Tape switch to Input.
7. Set Aux 2 select switch to Tape and adjust level and pan.

You should be able to record and monitor a dry signal now.

Use your effects unit in the Aux 1 buss and add to signal when mixing. If you record it with effects be absolutely sure it's exactly what you want because you won't be able to change it once it's down.

There are some Fostex 450 manuals available on ebay. You may want to pick one up. Hope this helps.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by dweeb

Does everyone concur with this chain? Seems like I've been putting the mixer in the wrong place. Maybe not. It's been a while. So, does everyone agree?

No mixer. Mic to Pre-amp to effects processor (if you want to record the effects on tape)

Mixer is the return (monitor) path. 16 channels out of fostex to input of console.

Or

Mic to pre-amp to tape and effects to the mixer (effects loop) if you want to hear the effects (while recording) while not recording the effects until mixdown.

[dweeb]

Originally Posted by MCI2424

No mixer. Mic to Pre-amp to effects processor (if you want to record the effects on tape)

Mixer is the return (monitor) path. 16 channels out of fostex to input of console.

Or

Mic to pre-amp to tape and effects to the mixer (effects loop) if you want to hear the effects (while recording) while not recording the effects until mixdown.

Thank you.