1/4" master to CD

[Golden]

I've got my song "mixed-down" to my 2-track Tascam 22-2. Now, I want to transfer it to my computer "24/96 card" then make a CD.

Important question!... Should the output on the 22-2 be cranked to the max and then "somehow" adjust via the 24/96 to stay at zero on the computer?

Or!... Should the output on the 22-2 be "the volume control" to have the signal sit a zero?

I'm posting this question after having done a test in my basement... I brought my 22-2 down and played the song on my stereo... Then I played a CD-R of the same song that I burnt on my comp...

Anyway, the master tape sounded way better than the CDR. Is there a way to do a transfer to disc that compares to the quality of the master tape?

Need help!

[Farview]

The level isn't that big of a deal as long as you don't clip the converters. However, the converters are a big deal in this instance. That is where you will lose the most quality.

[Tim Gillett]

When you talk about getting the levels to "stay at zero' or "sit at zero" what do you mean?

You should not be even approaching zero (ie: maximum digital level) or you risk clipping, as Farview said.

If you have a good soundcard, you can afford to record at maybe 10db below zero (max) and it should sound fine.

I would make the output on the 22-2 "the volume control" as it probably is safer in terms of avoiding overloading and noise problems. Normally the knob should be maybe between half to three quarters around.

Again, think digital, not analog tape. Zero or anywhere near it is way too hot a transfer. You can always do a peak check on the digital file later and increase gain without any risk of clipping it.

If you do it right, with good gear, the CDR should sound VERY close in quality to the master tape. You should be struggling to tell any difference. If not, something hasnt been done right, IMHO.

Tim

[Herm]

I have found that when transfering my stuff from my 22 to cool edit hitting the computer at about -6 works best. Then you still have some room for any thing you want to do in the computer. You dont need to hit 0 in the computer.

[Golden]

I guess I've been pushing the levels?... hitting somewhere just above -8db on the 24/96...

I'm sending the signal straight out from the 22-2 rca-outs direct into the ins on the 24/96 soundcard. I'm using the output knob on the 22-2 to control the level going into the soundcard.

I'm hearing a difference between the master tape and the CD. The CD is less "full" sounding...

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Farview

the converters are a big deal in this instance. That is where you will lose the most quality.

Farview, are you referring to the converters in the 24/96? Would I need some sort of high quality AD converter to achieve the desired result? Or maybe a CD recorder?

[Golden]

at zero, I meant around zero, sorry about that... I'm use to saying zero to myself...

[rayc]

I record into WAVEREPAIR (about $30 us downloaded) to make a CD if coming from tape. I run the signal in to achieve -3 on wavrepair's scale adjusting source level and w/rep levels for best qulaity achievable within the circumstances. This arrangement gives space for peaks that I'd forgotten about and also to add anything that needs adding after the transfer - addressing a percieved loss in bass, middle etc (w/rep is good at tweaking)- as well as normalizing etc.
I use a pretty good soundcard so that the signal isn't too stuffed up by the converters & monitor with the same set up as used when mixing.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by Golden

I'm hearing a difference between the master tape and the CD. The CD is less "full" sounding...

I too have found this to be the case, from just about any analog source. CD is cool, I guess, but it does have known resolution limitations. While you get the audible frequencies down, the end product is just a thinner version of the original. That's really not surprising to those who share the view but, obviously, some don't hear a difference and that's fine too.

[Tim Gillett]

Originally Posted by Golden

I've got my song "mixed-down" to my 2-track Tascam 22-2. Now, I want to transfer it to my computer "24/96 card" then make a CD.

Important question!... Should the output on the 22-2 be cranked to the max and then "somehow" adjust via the 24/96 to stay at zero on the computer?

Or!... Should the output on the 22-2 be "the volume control" to have the signal sit a zero?

I'm posting this question after having done a test in my basement... I brought my 22-2 down and played the song on my stereo... Then I played a CD-R of the same song that I burnt on my comp...

Anyway, the master tape sounded way better than the CDR. Is there a way to do a transfer to disc that compares to the quality of the master tape?

Need help!

Golden,
You're happy with the playback from your 22-2 so is the problem you have really analog?
There are special forums above this one for problems related to digital recording, converters, soundcards, CD burning etc. Why not try there?

Remember, much of digital recording uses an analog source (eg microphone, guitar pickup) so unless you have a specific issue with an analog machine, there's a wealth of analog to digital knowledge on the other appropriate forums.

Cheers Tim.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by Golden

I've got my song "mixed-down" to my 2-track Tascam 22-2. Now, I want to transfer it to my computer "24/96 card" then make a CD.

Important question!... Should the output on the 22-2 be cranked to the max and then "somehow" adjust via the 24/96 to stay at zero on the computer?

Or!... Should the output on the 22-2 be "the volume control" to have the signal sit a zero?

I'm posting this question after having done a test in my basement... I brought my 22-2 down and played the song on my stereo... Then I played a CD-R of the same song that I burnt on my comp...

Anyway, the master tape sounded way better than the CDR. Is there a way to do a transfer to disc that compares to the quality of the master tape?

Need help!

The output controls on the 22-2 are fine for adjusting levels to your soundcard as long as you’re monitoring levels with your software.

You’ll notice some loss in sound quality when going from open-reel half-track to digital. How big a difference depends largely on your converters and recording methods. You will lose something regardless. The goal is to minimize the impact.

If you have a soundcard that you can set things up to go from the 22-2 directly to 16/44.1 you will eliminate an unnecessary D/D conversion step. Unless you’re doing some editing ITB, sampling at 24/96 before converting to 16/44.1 gives you no advantage. For best results avoid gratuitous D/D conversion. It can have a greater negative impact than A/D conversion.

The next step that will make a difference is the speed at which you burn the file to your master CD. Keep it at 4X or less.

~Tim

[Tim Gillett]

Strange... I could have sworn I'd read Beck's post before I wrote mine. Now it appears below mine. Oh well, must be losing it...

Tim.

[Beck]

No, you're fine Tim. Have no fear. I made the mistake of trying to edit and reword for clarity... I ended up accidentally deleting the entire post, so had to repost all over again.

[Golden]

Beck, I've read that you use a Fostex CD recorder? You find that to do justice to your work?

There's a new Fostex recorder, the CR500? If the converters in a CD recorder sound better than the computer soundcard, I'll be picking one up... The little comparison I did last night on my basement stereo was an eye opener... I wish it wasn't such a pain in the butt to get an accurate transfer.

And yes, I'm going from my 22-2 right into the soundcard and recording at 16/44.1. Burning at a fast speed, though...

Thanks for the input, guys. Very helpful!

[Farview]

I was in a hurry when I posted before.

0dbVU on your 22 = -18dbfs in the computer. If you can get some test tones at 0dbvu on your tape deck and play them into the computer, you can calibrate the output of the tape deck. Then, just put on the tape you wish to transfer and hit record on the computer. Everything will work out fine.

[Golden]

For whatever it's worth, I rented an HHB CDR830 stand-alone CD recorder and it sounded absolutely terrible (No Low End!) in comparison to the m-audio 24/96. No question!

I sent the mix from my 22-2 direct into the rca ins on the HHB.

Anyway, I'm going to put this subject to rest for now...

I'll be continuing my experiments in the batcave...

[Beck]

The HHB CDR830 isn't the same beast as the CDR850. I don't know anything about the Fostex CR500.

I can only speak to the units I’ve used. As far as the Pioneer PDR-555, Fostex CR300 and HHB CDR850, it would take a whole lot a soundcard to even approach the sonic performance of those particular machines.

I'm afraid the days when I could blindly recommend a product based on a company's past performance are gone. The later models are just as likely to be inferior to their predecessors as they would be an improvement.

The trend seems to be cutting cost and cutting corners. In fact I pretty much expect this year’s model (whatever it is) to be a shadow of what the company put out five or ten years ago. I’ve found that to be the case more often than not, whether Lexicon, Kurzweil, TASCAM… you name it.

On the other hand you may have had a bad unit, or didn't spend enough time with it. Anyway, the bass on the PDR-555 and Fostex CR300 will rattle the windows.

[Golden]

I hear ya, Beck. You have way more experience than I do, so I'll take your word for it.

The HHB CDR830 was the only model available for rent, so I'm stuck for trying out recorders... It's a straightforward unit to use... The sound quality was obvious... I've only been recording "alone" for a year, but I've been involved with music for 17... I can definitely hear the diff... And it's absolutely in your face obviously terrible! Has anyone else tried this box? Not that it really matters...

By the way, that recorder is like $800 Canadian... I don't think it's for transferring analog masters...

I think, for myself, and possibly others who are struggling with this analog to digital debacle, a nice ad converter is the way to go… Unless there’s a place to rent, or you have a friend who will let you try out their discontinued gear, the safe bet is to get a nice converter… Because you can always return it!

[Tim Gillett]

Golden I'm honestly stumped as to what the problem is you're having.
Your M Audio 2496 card should be well up to the task. Loss of bass like that is about the last thing anyone would normally expect to happen.

Are you monitoring both master and copy through the same speakers/headphones/system and at similar volume levels? Are the inputs correct (eg: not using a turntable phono input etc)?
These days it's so easy to get an acceptable result which will differ very little from your original tape. I dont know what else to say. There seems something very fundamental that's been overlooked but without looking at your setup, not easy to work it out.

Cheers Tim

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Tim Gillett

Golden I'm honestly stumped as to what the problem is you're having.
Your M Audio 2496 card should be well up to the task. Loss of bass like that is about the last thing anyone would normally expect to happen.

Are you monitoring both master and copy through the same speakers/headphones/system and at similar volume levels? Are the inputs correct (eg: not using a turntable phono input etc)?
These days it's so easy to get an acceptable result which will differ very little from your original tape. I dont know what else to say. There seems something very fundamental that's been overlooked but without looking at your setup, not easy to work it out.

Cheers Tim

Hi, Tim... I'll try to clarify.

First of all, I’m happy with the sound of my master tape, which is a 2-track master on 457 tape, recorded on a Tascam 22-2.

Secondly, I want to make a “nice/accurate to the master” transfer of the master tape to digital.

The first thing I did was transfer the master tape to digital like this: Tascam 22-2 --> 24/96 @ 16/44, monitoring the levels with WaveLab.

So now I have a master on ¼” tape and a master on CD.

I went down into my basement and played the ¼” master on my stereo, then I played the CD on my stereo. I did this to see if I could hear a diff in the transfer and I did. I came to the conclusion that the CD was not an accurate transfer of what’s on the tape. Don’t get me wrong, the 24/96 transfer sounded reasonably good, just not as “good” as the tape master.

I then rented an HHB recorder and it sounded terrible in comparison to the 24/96 CD. This is just the facts of life…

Basically, I want a “more accurate” translation of what’s on the tape.

Tim, have you ever set up your 2-track master on your regular stereo player and then compared it to a CD version of the same recording on that same stereo?

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Beck

You’ll notice some loss in sound quality when going from open-reel half-track to digital. How big a difference depends largely on your converters and recording methods. You will lose something regardless. The goal is to minimize the impact.

What Beck says here is what I'm talking about, really... I want to learn how to "minimize the impact".

[Tim Gillett]

Sure, we all do. But it helps if you can put into words what is lacking in the transfer. Is it in the bass, the treble, the midrange? Noises, distortion? Especially if we cant hear it ourselves, your words are all we have to guide us in helping you.


cheers Tim.

[Farview]

Did you calibrate the inputs like I outlined earlier?

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Farview

Did you calibrate the inputs like I outlined earlier?

Farview, I'm going to give that a shot right now... Thanks!

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Farview

I was in a hurry when I posted before.

0dbVU on your 22 = -18dbfs in the computer. If you can get some test tones at 0dbvu on your tape deck and play them into the computer, you can calibrate the output of the tape deck. Then, just put on the tape you wish to transfer and hit record on the computer. Everything will work out fine.

Not sure how to hit 0dbvu on the tape deck... There's an output knob on the 22-2, but the numbers on it go from 1-9, min to max??? Maybe I'll run the 22-2 into my mixer and hit 0 there? Then hook the deck back up to the 24/96?