XY micing? Spaced pair?

[Greg_L]

I just got a new 7-pc drum-mic set for Christmas. Up until now, I've been close micing my kit with no overheads and strategically placing and panning the mics to get cymbal and hat bleed. It works okay, but now I have overheads and want to do it 'right'. I've been reading up on O/H micing techniques and get the overall jist of it, but I'm confused on which method to focus on. My room really sucks, but its all I have right now. It's small and the kit is sort of in a corner. But again, its all I can do so I need to make the best of it. I get a good snare and tom sound from the close mics, but I need better cymbal and hat flexibility.

Would the XY config serve me better in a small, bad room, or would the spaced pair method be better? I'll surely try both, but I just want some preliminary ideas.

Also, does anyone know a link or have pics of some good overhead setups?

Thanks,
Greg

[Supercreep]

Really - you need to try both, no matter what anyone else tells you.

Try Recorderman's technique as well.

Try a bunch of different things and it will become apparent what works well and what doesn't.

While there are definitely "wrong" ways to do things, there isn't always a "best way". It all depends.

Dont forget to have fun!

[Greg_L]

Oh I'll have fun. I love this shit.

I'll look into 'recorderman'. Thanks for the tip.

[Dogbreath]

Yeah Greg, I've been using the recorderman technique for a couple of years and have found that I like it best. I've got a small room too and this way just sounds better to my ears.
Very cool on the new set too. Got any pics of it yet?

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Dogbreath

Yeah Greg, I've been using the recorderman technique for a couple of years and have found that I like it best. I've got a small room too and this way just sounds better to my ears.
Very cool on the new set too. Got any pics of it yet?

Lol. No, its just the CAD Pro-7 drum mic pack. The kit is an old Rogers 5-pc kit that I've had for years.

Iv'e looked into the recorderman technique and it sounds pretty interesting. I'll play with it too. Though it seems that phasing problems can be a real bitch with that setup if its not done perfectly. I don't know.

[Greg_L]

Also, how does close mic'ing work with the recorderman method? Does it screw it up, or enhance it?

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

it seems that phasing problems can be a real bitch with that setup if its not done perfectly. I don't know.

Nah - don't sweat it. Just start with your kick, snare and OH mics. In fact, you may not even need to mic the snare. Definitely don't worry about micing toms right now. Small differences in position and slight movements yield big differences in sound. Before long you'll find a good technique that works for you.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Also, how does close mic'ing work with the recorderman method? Does it screw it up, or enhance it?

Again, you're the only person who can answer that with any veracity.

Try it both ways and let us know what you think.

[Dogbreath]

D'OH! My bad Greg...I missed the part about drum MIC set...

And like Supercreep said...just start with the kick and OH's. I use a snare mic too and have added the close toms but with some slight tweaking (usually to the drummers right OH) you get a nice full sound out of the kit without any other close mics.

Happy tracking sir.

[Greg_L]

Okay, thanks guys. Looks like I'll be doing some experimenting.

[Thorguitarist]

I too am limited with mics/money/etc. Usually I would say the overheads are most important. You can capture a pretty good all around sound from your set with only two overheads. No you aren't going to get the studio sound or strong bass drum but it works. I usually don't XY my overheads and Just one over the left half one over the right half and pan them respectively. That's just how I do it.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Thorguitarist

I too am limited with mics/money/etc. Usually I would say the overheads are most important. You can capture a pretty good all around sound from your set with only two overheads. No you aren't going to get the studio sound or strong bass drum but it works. I usually don't XY my overheads and Just one over the left half one over the right half and pan them respectively. That's just how I do it.

How do you deal with phasing?

[Thorguitarist]

what is phasing...I'm sure I've delt with it but never heard the term..sorry for being a n00b

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Thorguitarist

what is phasing...I'm sure I've delt with it but never heard the term..sorry for being a n00b

Phase: The relationship of an audio signal or sound wave to a specific time reference.

2 overheads that aren't spaced equally from a sound source will pick up the sound at slightly different times. This can lead to some weird things happening.

[TragikRemix]

from my head scratching/pulling testing.. i found that if you arent in an acoustically-superior room, close miking can save a lot of pain. by close miking the toms, i can put my OH's closer to the cymbals, and lower, and eliminate soom of the 'room'.

i say the hell with overheads, might as well mic the cymbals with 57's too

i hate recording drums, honestly, i do. even the roland td-3 into dfh superior can be a pain in the ass.

[Greg_L]

What about this?

The Glyn Johns method. http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/glynjohns.htm#Header

I think Rami uses this method and he always has a great drum sound. I'm not sure though. My only problem with this is the mic over the floor-tom that points at the hats. I keep my ride low and directly to the right of the floor-tom - exactly where the mic should be. Any ideas to get around this?

[Greg_L]

Update:

I've been toying with the 'recorderman' method. Got the O/H's lined up properly so the snare and kick are right in the middle and everything sounds even. Recorded the 2 O/H tracks. Sounds much better than I thought, but the snare is sort of weak, but not bad. The kick is very present, but doesn't have that boomong quality I like in a kick. No biggee. The hats and cymbals all come through very nicely. Now that the 2 O/H tracks are panned and EQ'd, I see that just these 2 tracks are very usable. Pretty amazing. But, the stereo image isn't as wide as I'd like. I like my toms progressing from one ear to the other as I go around the kit. I know its not a very 'natural' sound, but its what I like. Anyway, I brought out the close mics to use in conjunction with the recorderman O/H's and WOW what a nice blend of sounds I have to play with. I'm finding that I need to use very little of the actual snare track in the drum mix, and just enough toms to get them to make a wider stereo field. The O/H's really do seem to be doing most of the work besides the kick mic. Very cool indeed.

[Thorguitarist]

Glad you got something going there. I guess placement depends on the room and whatnot. Usually I do levels for the kick drum first and everything after..I just sit and toy with the mixer until I like what I hear

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Any ideas to get around this?

Move your cymbal.

[EdWonbass]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

Update:

I've been toying with the 'recorderman' method. Got the O/H's lined up properly so the snare and kick are right in the middle and everything sounds even. Recorded the 2 O/H tracks. Sounds much better than I thought, but the snare is sort of weak, but not bad. The kick is very present, but doesn't have that boomong quality I like in a kick. No biggee. The hats and cymbals all come through very nicely. Now that the 2 O/H tracks are panned and EQ'd, I see that just these 2 tracks are very usable. Pretty amazing. But, the stereo image isn't as wide as I'd like. I like my toms progressing from one ear to the other as I go around the kit. I know its not a very 'natural' sound, but its what I like. Anyway, I brought out the close mics to use in conjunction with the recorderman O/H's and WOW what a nice blend of sounds I have to play with. I'm finding that I need to use very little of the actual snare track in the drum mix, and just enough toms to get them to make a wider stereo field. The O/H's really do seem to be doing most of the work besides the kick mic. Very cool indeed.

I always seem to go back to this setup. I try spaced pair and even X/Y but I always go back to the recorderman setup. I think it picks up the kit pretty well. I can see where it might not be suitable for heavier music but it works for the weak crap I write.
I do also find that the floor tom doesn't sound quite so deep but that might just be my floor tom.

[Greg_L]

Originally Posted by Supercreep

Move your cymbal.

No can do. I like it where it is. I need it low and right above the floor tom. I guess I just wont mess with the Glyn John method.

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

No can do. I like it where it is. I need it low and right above the floor tom. I guess I just wont mess with the Glyn John method.

Yeah, that's where I like it too. It's a good thing you're both the drummer and the engineer here - Balancing "no can do" and "I want a good drum sound" can be a bitch.

I like to set up my drums ruler flat and very low. But in the studio I've had to change my setup a lot to get mics where I need them and to balance the cymbals and drums

When I'm listening to the track later I don't think about how gay I look or how uncomfortable I was though, so I guess it's worth the discomfort and hassle.

YMMV

[Supercreep]

Originally Posted by Greg_L

What about this?

The Glyn Johns method. http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/glynjohns.htm#Header

I think Rami uses this method and he always has a great drum sound. I'm not sure though. My only problem with this is the mic over the floor-tom that points at the hats. I keep my ride low and directly to the right of the floor-tom - exactly where the mic should be. Any ideas to get around this?

Rami gets a good sound primarily because he tunes his drums and strikes them hard with great consistency.

Rami's mics are not incredible, nor is his room amazing.


He's just a good player. They are always much easier to record.





Anyway, try adjusting the GJ placement before you write it off as a good technique for you. Move the mic to where you think it ought to be and try it. It may be exactly what you are looking for.

[Greg_L]

Well, so far I've tried the spaced-pair method and I'm getting way too much cymbal. I've tried the XY and I get the same thing. So far the 'recorderman' method has given the best results, but I'm not getting as much hi-hat as I'd like. I play reasonably fast stuff with a lot of 8th notes on the hat. The 'tss-tss-tss-tss' hat sound just isn't cutting through like I'd like it to once the buzzsawing guitars are laid on top of it. Maybe I should mic the hat as well.

[Supercreep]

Adjust a mic so that it is looking at the HH.

Perhaps some dynamics processing on your OH may be what you're looking for.


Keep fiddling around with placement until it sounds right. How it sounds should be directing your next move - so you're on the right track.