TS or TRS cables for my patchbay

[Foo-bu]

Hey guys, I'm looking into getting a snake for my patchbay and was wondering if I should be looking to get TRS cables or TS. The majority of my patchbay is hooked up to my Digi002 and then the rest of it is preamps and compressors.

I currently have a TS snake for 8 of the channels and that seems to do the job but i wasn't sure if I'm losing any quality by not having TRS.

Aren't TRS cables for stereo?
Is there a signal difference betwen the two? I think one is supposed to be ballanced and the other isn't. am i wrong?

Thanks!

[jaykeMURD]

TRS plugs are superior to TS plugs because TRS is a fully balanced cable, which offers the most resistance to interference and resists hum and other bad sounds.

TRS should not be confused with Stereo plugs, as they are meant for different purposes. A headphone uses a stereo plug, not a TRS. A TRS plug is essentially the same as an XLR, just in a different form.

I would switch the snake to TRS if you've been experiencing issues regarding interference and hum or noise. Actually, I'd do that period, seeing as though most decent recording equipment SHOULD use TRS or XLR wiring.

[Foo-bu]

thanks for the help! I'm assuming then that I would have to also use TRS patch cables for the front of the patchbay as well?

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by jaykeMURD

TRS plugs are superior to TS plugs because TRS is a fully balanced cable, which offers the most resistance to interference and resists hum and other bad sounds.

At distances longer than 20', this is true. But under 20', unbalanced (Tip-Sleeve....TS) cables offer adequate shielding.

Originally Posted by jaykeMURD

TRS should not be confused with Stereo plugs, as they are meant for different purposes. A headphone uses a stereo plug, not a TRS. A TRS plug is essentially the same as an XLR, just in a different form.

TRS and "Stereo plugs" are identical. They are the SAME THING. TRS = Tip-Ring-Sleeve, which is a stereo cable. And while a TRS cable has three conductors like an XLR cable does, it is NOT "essentially the same as an XLR", they are two totally different styles of connectors, and each have a valid purpose of existence in the audio world.

[Ford Van]

The first thing you need to know overall is IF your patchbay is TRS or TS. These days, I don't think manufactures are making strictly TS patchbays like they did in the old days. But if you have an older Furman patchbay, it might be a TS.

Anyway, I would outfit everything with TRS. Even if you have some unbalanced connections, the TRS connections will work just fine. You can't however make TRS connections work on a TS patchbay.

[xstatic]

Generally, TRS is reccomended over TS. First, I would see what your equipment uses/recommends. If it uses unbalanced outputs, then I would stay with TS cables. If it uses balanced outputs, I would make sure to use TRS cables. It is also imprtant, like mentioned above, to make sure that your patchbay is TRS. If it is TS and you use TRS cables, there is a good chance you will lose some signal level.

Just to be clear, make sure you see what the wiring scheme is on your equipment, especially if you are using older or European based equipment. Make sure that all of your equipment is pin 2 hot. Also, do not assume blindly that +4 is the same as balanced. There is equipment out there that uses +4 unbalanced.

[Treeline]

To pick up on what's been said, remember that the "balance" in a balanced cable refers to the nature of the signal, not the nature of the cable. TRS cables are three conducter, shielded cables. The work as stereo cables, insert cables, and as balanced cables. Each use involves a signal of a peculiar nature. We call them balanced cables because that's a common use; a TS cable cannot carry a balanced signal. It will carry one leg as an unbalanced signal.

Do a search here on the term "balanced" and you will find a lot of good information. But the bottom line is a balanced signal incorporates a simple but extremely effective method of noise reduction - losing the cable static. Because that problem happens when the cable becomes an antenna, longer cable runs will pick up more noise - they are better antennae. For short runs and patch cords, there might be a measurable difference between balanced and unbalanced, but you'll not likely hear it. But when in doubt, go for a balanced signal if you can. Most equipment can function with either TS or TRS.

[carlosguardia]

Guys, cables are NOT balanced or unbalanced, the signal traveling through the cable can be balanced or ubalanced. A TRS (Tip, Ring, Sleeve) cable can transmit a balanced or an unbalanced signal.
Depending on what kind of signal you need to carry, hence the cable you should go and buy.

Carlos

[warble2]

Originally Posted by carlosguardia

Guys, cables are NOT balanced or unbalanced, the signal traveling through the cable can be balanced or ubalanced. A TRS (Tip, Ring, Sleeve) cable can transmit a balanced or an unbalanced signal.
Depending on what kind of signal you need to carry, hence the cable you should go and buy.

Carlos

Didn't Treeline basically say this same thing?

[Ford Van]

Cable are NOT balanced or unbalanced? Why it is true that you can run unbalanced sign down a balanced cable, try running a balanced connection down a unbalanced cable!

[fraserhutch]

Personally, I'm unbalanced, as are certains other on this BBS.

[Big Kenny]

I am unbalanced as well, but I'm stereo..

[Treeline]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

Cable are NOT balanced or unbalanced? Why it is true that you can run unbalanced sign down a balanced cable, try running a balanced connection down a unbalanced cable!

It's clear that the cable isn't the only thing getting unbalanced here...

[Foo-bu]

well it turns out that apparently my patchbay is a TS only bay. so i guess that answers things. I wish I had known at the time when I bought it :P

[punkin]

You can use a TRS cable in a TS patchpanel. The questions is, what is the configuration of the component you ultimately plan to connect to? If the device say, a mic pre is pinned out as a TRS, then you'll short the Ring and Sleve using the TS cable. Generally, I say, get a TRS patch panel and use TRS cables. It's hard to screw that up.

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

TRS and "Stereo plugs" are identical. They are the SAME THING. TRS = Tip-Ring-Sleeve, which is a stereo cable.

Careful now. The connectors are identical, but the cables aren't necessarily wired the same way....

For TRS patch cables, the cable should be a single twisted pair with a shield around it. The tighter the twist, the better the noise rejection. By contrast, for optimal stereo separation, the cable should consist of two individually shielded wires. Most headphone cables I've cut open are wired this way, for example. Use a twisted pair and... well, the tighter the twist, the worse the stereo separation.

So the goals of a stereo cable and a TRS cable are diametrically opposed. You can wire them the same way, but you really shouldn't.

(Note that none of what I'm talking about here is likely to make an appreciable difference for a short run of cable.)

[DigitalSmigital]

so to summarize, you are using a patchbay with TS connections and processors with TRS connections and TRS cables in between.

[Foo-bu]

Originally Posted by DigitalSmigital

so to summarize, you are using a patchbay with TS connections and processors with TRS connections and TRS cables in between.

well as of right now, i have a TS patchbay with TS cables only.

I'm looking to add more cables to the bay and am gonna connect them to my DIGI002 inputs and outputs, DBX 586 preamp, Joe Meek VC3 and VC6, and dbx 163x compressor.

I just wasn't sure at the time I started the thread that I had a TS only patchbay and was unsure of whether or not there was a quality difference between the cables and if a ballanced TRS cable would even work with my gear. but now that I know I have a TS patchbay, I've come to terms with the fact that I'll either need to buy TS cables or upgrade my patchbay and TS cables to ballanced.

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by Foo-bu

well as of right now, i have a TS patchbay with TS cables only.

I'm looking to add more cables to the bay and am gonna connect them to my DIGI002 inputs and outputs, DBX 586 preamp, Joe Meek VC3 and VC6, and dbx 163x compressor.

I just wasn't sure at the time I started the thread that I had a TS only patchbay and was unsure of whether or not there was a quality difference between the cables and if a ballanced TRS cable would even work with my gear. but now that I know I have a TS patchbay, I've come to terms with the fact that I'll either need to buy TS cables or upgrade my patchbay and TS cables to ballanced.

No.... There's nothing wrong with using TRS cables with a TS patchbay. You just won't get the benefits of a balanced signal path until you upgrade both the patchbay and the cables.

[punkin]

Even then, if the gear you have doesn't have TRS connections, it won't matter

[MessianicDreams]

Originally Posted by DigitalSmigital

so to summarize, you are using a patchbay with TS connections and processors with TRS connections and TRS cables in between.

correct me if i'm wrong, but if you're trying to plug a TRS cable with a balanced signal into a TS input, you'll get a 6dB drop as you'll be losing half your signal.

[punkin]

6dB is about right but worse yet, in a true balanced circuit, you'd be shorting the outputs together. You don't want to do that. If the device has a transformer output, you won't cause any damage but, if the output is a transistor output or any other active device/amp type thingy, it's very likely you'll damage it over time.

I'd suggest just going with a TRS/balanced (same thing) patch panel and TRS cables...you can't screw it up that way.

[SonicAlbert]

Originally Posted by punkin

I'd suggest just going with a TRS/balanced (same thing) patch panel and TRS cables...you can't screw it up that way.

I agree with this advice. Further, you might want to consider using cables that are properly wired for the ins and outs of your gear and future TRS patchbay.

In other words, you need to check each piece of gear you will be connecting to the patchbay and find out what type of connector it uses, i.e. TS, TRS, or XLR. Then, cables need to be built that correctly interface the gear with the patchbay. So the TRS connections would be a simple TRS to TRS cable. But the unbalanced TS output of the gear would need a cable properly built TS to TRS cable. All your patching on the front of the patchbay would then be done with TRS patch cables, not TS patch cables.

[MCI2424]

Jeez.......................
A "balanced" signal is a two component affair in which one signal is an inverted copy of the other signal. When the "balanced" pair of signals is received, any voltage of the same value that appears on BOTH legs is cancelled out, The DIFFERECE between these two voltages are amplified. That is why "hum" and other RF noise gets rejected. DC voltages appear on both legs at the same time. Differential amplifiers will only accept a difference between the two signals. No difference in voltage means the amplifier never "sees" the offending noise (unless there is substantial amplifier DC offset, which is a whole other story)

Another name is differential.

"TRS" or "TS" are the names of the connector interface. TRS have three connections and TS have 2 connections.

So, therefore, there are cables that are wired for either two connections or three connections.

My MCI tape machine use Tuchnel connectors.

Question:
Are Tuchnel connectors balanced or unbalanced?

[punkin]

A person with "skills". You are correct sir (as you're quite sure). The balanced output which often times uses a TRS connector in the music hardware world is most likely a transformer coupled output and if not, could be transistor (push-pull). Shorting the later out in a TS connector could be devistating. The transformer coupling in it's self lends nicely to the isolation aspects of equipment generated noises and doubly nice because you pointed out are out of phase with each other and tend to reject line induced noises and are usually wrapped neatly in a shield of some sort...braided or a simply drain and foil.

So the question stands...are Tuchnel connectors balanced or unbalanced...I dare say it's a trick question which is likely meant to correct my previous statement of TRS is balanced...depends on how its wired and what it's connected to...the signal source first determines this then, assuming you don't corrupt the path it will remain balanced if it started that way. I suppose, one could say that a TS connector might be used as a balanced connector but you'd have to give up the shield and common ground/bond connection between the devices. Field phones and old time telephone systems come to mind.

Right you are sir...I have a tendancy to over simplfy. Hats off to you!

All rise!
Peace my friend, I wish you the best Christmas of all time. Hope the holidays bring you and your family joy and good tidings. Awww...ok...the same to everyone else too