Should I get a 2 track deck for mixdown??

[fred s.]

I've been tracking with a Fostex model 80, and either sending a stereo mix into my PC, or at times sending all 8 tracks separately (when a lot of editing might be needed) through my M-Audio Delta 1010lt at 24 bits.

Lately I've been a bit curious though, will there be much of a benefit in doing a stereo mixdown on a 2 track deck, then going into the computer?

And it gets a bit more complicated, for the songs that require computer editing...say i go from the Model 80>>PC then what? Send it back into an analog 2-track? Would all those "transfers" hurt the sound?

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by fred s.

will there be much of a benefit in doing a stereo mixdown on a 2 track deck, then going into the computer?

The benefits of dumping your mixes to a half track deck include the best possible archival of such work and some would argue a better, more coherent sound when all the individual tracks get dubbed over to the 2 track. Another benefit is the ability to quickly and easily send your completed mixes to whatever digital medium is available in the future, without losing the original analog linear recording.

for the songs that require computer editing...say i go from the Model 80>>PC then what? Send it back into an analog 2-track? Would all those "transfers" hurt the sound?

I think what you have hit upon is more of a preference than it being a right or wrong way of doing it. If I were in that situation I'd keep my 8 track analog masters, edit those in PC and then do a mixdown to my harddrive and then go CD-R or whatever medium you have. Dumping to 2 track analog after that would mostly add more of that "tape sound" and perhaps "coherence" to the 8 digitized tracks. You would have to listen to the final result if it benefits or hurts your sound.

I personally would do all of my editing in analog, dump to 2 track analog and then go CD recorder or PC.

[fred s.]

I think i might pick one up, just to see how I like it. I was thinking the Fostex Model 20 might be a nice match to my 80?

I havent been able to find much info on it though...

[Beck]

There is a lot to be said for mixing your tracks down using half-track tape, whether your multitrack is digital or analog.

The analog stereo mixdown should ideally be the last step before final digital conversion to the bit depth and sampling rate of the playback medium. If that is CD, then going from tape to 16/44.1 is the least destructive. Gratuitous digital editing will have a greater negative sonic impact… much more than analog generational loss from a couple transfers.

It’s generally best to avoid digital conversion between different Word lengths and resolutions. As an alternative I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the results of using analog outputs of a 24/96 device to the analog inputs of a 16/44.1 device rather than let an algorithm decide how to make your 24 bits fit into 16. You could do this with a stand-alone CD recorder or by using an analog deck.

R8 >> Analog Half-track >> 16/44.1

Or if doing some digital editing:

R8 separate tracks >> M-Audio Delta 1010lt >> Analog Half-track >> 16/44.1 for Redbook CD.

A lot of folks like the Fostex Model 20. Another compact option that I am rather partial to is the TASCAM 22-2.

~Tim

[fred s.]

Originally Posted by Beck

As an alternative I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the results of using analog outputs of a 24/96 device to the analog inputs of a 16/44.1 device rather than let an algorithm decide how to make your 24 bits fit into 16. You could do this with a stand-alone CD recorder or by using an analog deck.

Tim, Thanks so much for the info! Are there any reasonably inexpensive stand-alone CD recorders I should look into?

[Beck]

Originally Posted by fred s.

Tim, Thanks so much for the info! Are there any reasonably inexpensive stand-alone CD recorders I should look into?

I like some of the units made by Pioneer.

The one I have is the Fostex CR300 pro CD recorder. It is nearly identical to the HHB CDR850 except for the color and an extra feature the Fostex unit has for backing up the Fostex ADAT. They are both based on the same Pioneer unit.

I used to have the Pioneer PDR-555RW, which is a consumer model, but is the model the above two are based on. Sonically it sounds great (for a CD).

It's probably worth the extra bucks to go with one of the pro units. The reason being is that the word is out on the PDR-555 and they are going for stupid money on eBay. Bidding against the audiophile community on eBay is just no fun at all.

There is also an HHB CDR850 Plus and a CDR830.

As much as I love analog I have to give credit where credit is due to Pioneer for putting sound quality first when designing these CD recorders.

some links for further info:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may9....htm?print=yes

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov9....htm?print=yes

[fred s.]

Great, thanks again for the info, I'll look into those. I've never used one before, so I have a few questions..

Would I just go from the outs of my mixdown deck into the cd recorder (no mixer)?

Is there going to be a big noticeable advantage to using one, rather than just making the cd on my computer, by plugging the outs of an analog mixdown deck back to the ins of my M-audio 1010lt (but set at 16/44.1 for cd burning) ?

Originally Posted by Beck

I like some of the units made by Pioneer.

The one I have is the Fostex CR300 pro CD recorder. It is nearly identical to the HHB CDR850 except for the color and an extra feature the Fostex unit has for backing up the Fostex ADAT. They are both based on the same Pioneer unit.

I used to have the Pioneer PDR-555RW, which is a consumer model, but is the model the above two are based on. Sonically it sounds great (for a CD).

It's probably worth the extra bucks to go with one of the pro units. The reason being is that the word is out on the PDR-555 and they are going for stupid money on eBay. Bidding against the audiophile community on eBay is just no fun at all.

There is also an HHB CDR850 Plus and a CDR830.

As much as I love analog I have to give credit where credit is due to Pioneer for putting sound quality first when designing these CD recorders.

some links for further info:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may9....htm?print=yes

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov9....htm?print=yes

[Beck]

Originally Posted by fred s.

Great, thanks again for the info, I'll look into those. I've never used one before, so I have a few questions..

Would I just go from the outs of my mixdown deck into the cd recorder (no mixer)?

Is there going to be a big noticeable advantage to using one, rather than just making the cd on my computer, by plugging the outs of an analog mixdown deck back to the ins of my M-audio 1010lt (but set at 16/44.1 for cd burning) ?

I think using the M-Audio is worth a try... since you already have it. The quality of sound cards varies greatly. I don’t know the M-Audio 1010LT in particular, other than what I’ve heard… people seem to like them well enough. Generally speaking, one has to reach quite high on the sound card food chain to get results comparable to a hi-fi stand-alone CD burner like the afore mentioned Pioneer models, or something like the Alesis Masterlink.

There are things you can do to optimize whatever you have. One important factor that many seem to be unaware of these days is the speed at which you burn your CD on a PC-based system. Keep it at 4X speed or lower. One of the advantages of a stand-alone burner is simply that it operates in real-time, or 1X. The error correction algorithms in the Redbook and CD-ROM specifications can breakdown at the lightning fast writing speeds that we’ve become accustomed to.

Just remember digital audio and other digital files are quite different and most importantly… “Speed Kills.”

If you want to do further research, Kuhn’s online lectures are a pretty good place to start. There are many more online resources.

http://www.ee.washington.edu/consele...cdrom/95x8.htm

The burner in your PC and quality of the medium also have a significant impact, regardless of how well your sound card performs. And when it comes down to it, your motherboard, RAM, hard drive and processor as well.

The advantage of the stand-alone is that it's a device designed for a single purpose.

I normally record my analog master directly to CD, setting levels with the controls on the reel deck and CD burner.

~Tim,

[themaddog]

I tried two of the Pioneer models that Beck mentioned off of eBay. Both had the same issue; neither would recognize any discs, including standard (not CD-R) CD's. This is a common problem with these models, from reviews I've read elsewhere.

I don't doubt the quality of these devices, nor Beck's high recommendation, but just keep in mind that because of the nature of the used electronics marketplace that you may have trouble finding a functioning unit, or one that will continue to work in the future.

Best of luck,
-MD

[Beck]

Yeah MD, I remember you mentioning that. Did you finally end up with a stand-alone unit that you can recommend? I’d be interested to hear what you think of some others that I haven’t worked with.

At the time I tried a couple TASCAM units made by Philips, and I went with the Fostex mainly based on sound. That was a tough one for me too because I’m a TASCAM fan from way back. The CR300 and the TT-15 test oscillator are currently the only Fostex products I own.

I should also mention that if Fred or anyone looks for a PDR-555RW on ebay I've read of problems with some early units made before 2000. The date of manufacture is on the back, so ask the seller what year it says, and of course remember to choose your seller wisely.

Also check http://www.musicgoround.com

They are a national chain with a standard return policy on the used equipment they sell.

Unfortunately eBay is among other things a dumping ground for worn out equipment.

~Tim

[cjacek]

...not to sound like a broken record [joke here somewhere ] but a couple of bumps or a drop for a not so well packed CD recorder (even in its original factory packing) and it won't track properly.

[fred s.]

I'm looking at a Fostex Model 20 thats in a local shop. Tim, do you know if i would be able to check/adjust the calibration of the machine with MRL 21J303-A tape?

You helped me pick that out a while back for my Model 80!

[Dr ZEE]

this doc http://www.canford.fr/ProductResources/ig/3309.pdf listed MRL 21J303-A

[Dr ZEE]

here's copy / paste from some e-bay listing of fostex 20, I assume it comes from manual(?), but I don't know for sure:
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

TAPE 1/4 inch tape width, 1 mil base

FORMAT 2 track, 2 channel w/center track for time code

REEL SIZE 7 inch

TAPE SPEED 15 and 7-1/2 ips (38 and 19 cm/s) ±0.5%

PITCH CONTROL ±10%

LINE INPUT -10dBV (0.3V), impedance: 30K? unbalanced

LINE OUTPUT -10dBV (0.3V), load impedance: 10K? or higher, unbalanced

RECORD LEVEL CALIBRATION 0dB referenced to 514 nWb/m of tape flux (L,R TRK)
0dB referenced to 320 nWB/m of tape flux (CUE TRK)

EQUALIZATION NAB or IEC

WOW & FLUTTER ±0.06% peak (IEC/ANSI), weighted at 15 ips

±0.12% peak (IEC/ANSI), weighted at 7-1/2 ips, measured with flutter test tape

STARTING TIME Less than 0.5 sec

FAST WIND TIME 140 seconds for 1800 ft. of tape

FREQUENCY RESPONSE Both SYNC & REPRO for L/R channels:
30Hz ~ 22kHz, at 15 ips, ±3dB
30HZ ~ 20kHz, at 7-1/2 ips, ±3dB
Both HIGH & LOW speeds for CUE REPRO:
50Hz~ 12.5kHz
Both HIGH & LOW speeds for CUE SYNC:
50Hz ~ 6.3kHz

SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO L R TRK: 70dB weighted,
67dB unweighted at 15 ips and
7-1/2 ips, referenced to 3% T.H.D.
level at 1 kHz
CUE TRK: 63dB weighted,
58dB unweighted at 15 ips and
7-1/2 ips, referenced to 3% T.H.D.
level at 1 kHz

T.H.D. Less than 1% at 1 kHz, 0dB

ERASURE Better than 70dB at 1 kHz

CROSSTALK CUE TRK ? L, R TRK, better than 70dB/1 kHz with all
channels in REC mode

POWER REQUIREMENTS 120V AC, 60Hz, 44W (U.S.A./Canada models)
220V AC, 50Hz, 44W (European models)
240V AC, 50Hz, 44W (UK/Australian models)

DIMENSIONS, overall 14"(W)x 13-1/2"(H) x8-1/2"(D)

WEIGHT 29 Ibs (13kg)

[fred s.]

Thanks for the Model 20 info! There's also a Fostex A-2 on Ebay I was looking at, I'm leaning more towards the Model 20, but any advice/info on the A-2 would be great!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...DME:L:RTQ:US:1

[Beck]

Originally Posted by fred s.

I'm looking at a Fostex Model 20 thats in a local shop. Tim, do you know if i would be able to check/adjust the calibration of the machine with MRL 21J303-A tape?

You helped me pick that out a while back for my Model 80!

***WARNING LONG ANSWER***

Most half-tracks sold in North America were factory set for NAB equalization. Multitracks like your M-80 use IEC equalization. Your MRL 21J303 is IEC.

I have an original Model 20 brochure that says, “The equalization is set according to NAB; the US standard.” However, in the specification section it says the machine can be set for NAB or IEC, but it doesn’t give any details on how that’s accomplished. Some machines have to be set for one or the other, while others can be switched back and forth with a simple switch on the back. You can set a TASCAM 22-2 for IEC if you want, but it’s a complicated procedure that involves changing some resistors.

The brochure was printed in Japan in 1985 and is not very well written. There are a few typos, one being the reference flux, which is listed as 514 nWb/m referenced to 0 VU. That can’t be right for the recommended tape, AMPEX 457. That number is too low for the 3% THD level, but too high to be the right reference flux level… so I don’t know what the heck.

Regardless, the short answer is yes you can use MRL 21J303-a no matter what because there are compensation procedures if using an IEC tape to calibrate a NAB machine and vice versa. J McKnight has the procedures on the MRL site. The only thing you won’t be able to do with that tape is calibrate the lower speed setting of 7.5 ips. You can only setup at 15 ips speed.

You just have to find out what the equalization really is before you can proceede.

That eBay listing may be using the same flakey brochure I have.

Hopefully someone that owns a Model 20 can chime in, like Dave (A Reel Person). You might want to send him a PM. He could tell you if there's a switch or something.

For best results start a new thread titled "Info Needed on Fostex Model 20"

The Fostex A-2 is the first half-track Fostex made. There may not be much left of the heads if used for years in a university, but you should probably ask for a couple close-up pics of the heads to really know.

~Tim

[fred s.]

Wow, Tim thanks again for all the great info!!

I sent you a pm.

[Goldenvoice388]

Not that I'm an expert on all these CD burners, but I've been getting along great with my Harman Kardon CDR20.

[evm1024]

Just to chime in... I did pick up a Tascam CDR5000 off eBay and it was very picky about media. Until I dissassembled the transport and cleand the lasers optics. delicate but do able. Then it wouuld burn almost anything I fed it.

years of gunk and mustache hairs had coated the optics. (think cotton on the end of toothpicks)

-E