how do you place your monitors???

[thajeremy]

I understand that the tweeters should be at ear level. However, I also know that some people place their speakers on their sides....when you do this, what seems to be better to you??? Tweeters towards the center like figure 1, woofers towards the center like figure 2 or does it even seem to matter??

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

I understand that the tweeters should be at ear level. However, I also know that some people place their speakers on their sides....when you do this, what seems to be better to you??? Tweeters towards the center like figure 1, woofers towards the center like figure 2 or does it even seem to matter??

In general, people tend to place the tweeters on the outside because high frequencies tend to be more directional whereas low frequencies tend to just "fill the room". Because of this, the wider the tweeters, the wider the perceived stereo image. Wider woofers do not fill up the room any better, however.

This is also why bass and kick tend to gravitate towards the middle of a mix; there's not a lot of stereo position information down at 100Hz, so it's better to save the panning for higher frequencies.

That said, though, the final variables that can change all that reasoning are a combination of speaker-to-listener distances and personal preferences. Sometimes, especially with the closer nearfield arrangements, tweeters on the outside san make the image sound too spread wide, leaving a bit of a hole in the middle of the stereo image, making it harder to mix. Some people like it extra wide like that, others prefer a more natural pan field without the hole. (The latter reason is why I keep my nearfields vertical.)

So, as usual with this stuff, it comes down to which way works best for you. Try it both ways for a while and see how it works out, and don't worry about who else does it what way.

G.

[Ford Van]

Neither way is really the proper way with most speaker designs. The tweeter above the woofer is the proper way to have most speakers. I am aware that here and there, there are designs that were made to have the tweeter and woofer next to each other. Anyway, the difference between sideways and up and down is not going to be that big of a deal.

But, your midrange is going to tend to not spread out as much. In a two way box design with a tiny horn like that, the woofer is actually handling AT LEAST 1khz on down. Sometimes, the crossover point is even higher. This is another reason that tweeter over woofer is the proper way to display the speakers, because the imaging will be more consistent. Of course, often, the speakers are "tilted" inward, thus, making the woofer farther away from your ear than the tweeter. This can cause time alignment problems. Some speaker intentionally have the tweeter recessed so that when the tweeter is over the woofer, the time alignment is perfect. If your box was designed this way, you would negate the design by putting them on their side and having the woofers on the inside.

Figuratively, having the woofers closer together would be better acoustically speaking. You have less nodes in the room when the speakers are from a single source as opposed to multiple sources. So, as you bring the speakers closer together, the number of sources causing more angles of reflection is significantly reduced. In a room DESIGNED for a stereo listening environment that is natural, this would not be an issue as the room would by design limit the amount of low frequency reflections that can cause nodes.

Anyway, I personally keep my monitors tweeter over woofer. While the difference is VERY slight, I DO notice a difference in the sound field. Upright, the sound field is more natural.

[Harvey Gerst]

Figure 1 is my preferred method for several reasons, although Ed and Glen are absolutely right as far as vertical being most correct.

Most of the lower cost monitors are not "time-aligned", so tilting them inward (with the tweeters inside as shown in figure 1) helps a bit with the tweeter phase alignment.

The second reason I keep the woofers to the outside is to prevent the tweeter signal from being modulated by passing thru the low end woofer output. While I freely admit that this is more about theory than perceived sound, it makes me feel better about what I'm hearing.

[COOLCAT]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

I understand that the tweeters should be at ear level. However, I also know that some people place their speakers on their sides....when you do this, what seems to be better to you??? Tweeters towards the center like figure 1, woofers towards the center like figure 2 or does it even seem to matter??

Some say the tweeters in, is like a stage thing where the vocalist is in the middle. Bass is non-directional ect...so woofers out.

the stereo effect has the tweeters out. woofs in...more seperation.

Upright and Tweeters at Ear level is where mine are right now.3ft EE.

If bass is non-directional (which I don't really believe, as I can hear it if its panned hard left or right..so that means it is directional? right? )
Bob Hodas agrees with me. Brilliant minds think alike. (get your boots on the shits getting deep)

but.......I was also wondering, reading this post...what if?

What if the original dewd was just lazy?
What if he went and got nearfields because he was too lazy to run around and check his mix in several other places. He didn't want to leave his nice comfy chair?

So he went to a HiFi store and bought some "average Joe speakers" that he could afford at that moment...
but when he went to plop them on his mixing console the HiFi speakers didn't fit!! So he laid them on their sides to prevent from falling off the mixing console?

He set them up to where they sounded good. just happened to be about 3-5ft. They were stereo speakers after all, stereo was in, mono was old crap.

Then as he became famous making hits, all the humans wanted to copy him exactly so they too could be rich and famous, Yamaha NS10..and
...laid on their sides, of course?

just a crazy thought.

[Harvey Gerst]

Nice theory, but not supported by the facts.

Before Yamaha NS-10's, there were Auratones sitting on most meter bridges as small "mix checkers". Yamaha gave away a lot of NS-10's to studios in order to get their foot in the door. The NS-10's WERE an improvement in these larger studios, in that they played louder and put out a lot more mid and high end information than the 4" Auratones.

When Bob Clearmountain announced he was doing final mixes on the NS-10's (with a few layers of toilet paper over the tweeters to smooth the high end), they became a serious de facto standard for studios.

But most professional studios never considered small speakers, sitting on the meter bridge, as "real monitors". That phenomena came about with the appearance of the "home studio", where small spaces, restricted loudness, and an unwillingness to tear into a bedroom or rented apartment created a need for smaller, but accurate speakers that could serve as monitors.

Ed Long and Associates blessed these new smaller speakers with a paper on "nearfield monitors", which showed that they could actually work fairly well in bad rooms by avoiding reflections.

By the way, Ed Long actually own the trademarked terms, "Nearfield" and "Time-Aligned".

So, there's the history of "nearfield monitors" and a brief history of how the NS-10 rose to popularity.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

I understand that the tweeters should be at ear level. However, I also know that some people place their speakers on their sides....when you do this, what seems to be better to you??? Tweeters towards the center like figure 1, woofers towards the center like figure 2 or does it even seem to matter??

I place them on my head.
I use headphones.

Eck

[COOLCAT]

facts?! but..but....

I forgot about the toilet paper, I always loved that one. Its documented in history on the Aerosmith movie, Making of Pump....theres the NS10 and a square of TP!! not sure if its 1 or 2 ply.

seriously,
what about the laying on its side though? was that a fluke,? Is it just a phenomena because Clearmountain and the Pro's did it? Which came first the science or the engineer?

and Ed Long....what ever happend to the Time Align philosphy, with the tweeter in the center of the cone? I liked that idea... it wouldn't matter if it was on its side or not then.

I still, kind of, think the Nearfield thing derived from a sole lazy engineer somehwere, sometime.. a lazy engineer who didn't want to go to the car and test out his mixes...probably lived up in the North, in the cold weather.... maybe it was the same dewd that started the Auratones? Apparently Clearmountain knew him and copied his idea. (its getting really deep.)

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by COOLCAT

facts?! but..but....

I forgot about the toilet paper, I always loved that one. Its documented in history on the Aerosmith movie, Making of Pump....theres the NS10 and a square of TP!! not sure if its 1 or 2 ply.

seriously,
what about the laying on its side though? was that a fluke,? Is it just a phenomena because Clearmountain and the Pro's did it? Which came first the science or the engineer?

For most people, laying them on their side serves two purposes: It lets you see over them, and it keeps them from being knocked over easily. No science; just more practical.

and Ed Long....what ever happened to the Time Align philosophy, with the tweeter in the center of the cone? I liked that idea... it wouldn't matter if it was on its side or not then.

Well, that centered tweeter tradition was carried on by Tannoy, UReI , JBL, and many other companies, but unless the voice coils are in the same plane, it's not "time-aligned". And with separated speaker comonents, time alignment is "iffy" at best; great when it works, but the smallest sweet spot possible.

I still, kind of, think the Nearfield thing derived from a sole lazy engineer somewhere, sometime.. a lazy engineer who didn't want to go to the car and test out his mixes...probably lived up in the North, in the cold weather.... maybe it was the same dewd that started the Auratones? Apparently Clearmountain knew him and copied his idea. (its getting really deep.)

Nope, nearfields became popular due to Clearmountain using "mix checker" NS-10 speakers to do final mixes with, and the home studio popularity which elevated "mix checkers" to the only speakers used.

[masteringhouse]

Theory and history aside which image sounds better to you?

The distance between you and the speakers is also a factor. Assuming you're following the the equilateral triangle rule, placing the tweeters to the outside may sound better if you're up close and the speakers are not spread out as far.

Listen to the image, if you're hearing a "hole" in the middle and you have the tweeters to the outside, try turning them around. If it sounds "congested" in the middle and you have them to the inside go outside. Also try different spacing between the speakers and toeing them in versus straight.

There are also speaker mounts to allow you to angle them down if the tweeters are in too high of a position.

My personal preference though is to keep both tweeter and other speakers at the same horizontal distance to my ears (I assume the designer has accounted for phase alignment in this manner in most cases, NS-10s one possible exception), so I stand them up and adjust height as needed.

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by COOLCAT

If bass is non-directional (which I don't really believe, as I can hear it if its panned hard left or right..so that means it is directional? right? )
Bob Hodas agrees with me. Brilliant minds think alike. (get your boots on the shits getting deep)

Next time you record a bass guitar, or a kick drum, view the sound with a frequency analyzer. You will see that neither is ONLY the fundamental frequency. What makes two instruments playing the same fundamental note sound different from each other is how each of those instruments have different overtones, or a different timbre !

So, it isn't the low frequencies in the "bass" sound that is making it so that you can isolate it's position, it is the overtone notes that can be up to 4 or 5 octaves higher that are tipping you off to it's location!

That is simple acoustics friend.

[masteringhouse]

Just to add a bit to FV's post:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/articles/ht-4.htm

[Jamz0r]

I hope I didn't miss it, but I didn't notice anyone mentioning isosceles or equilateral triangles in their nearfield speaker placement opinions.

I had always just placed the speakers "where they looked cool".
Now, since setting them up in an equilateral triangle, I am getting a really nice stereo image that is so much better...like night and day!

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by Jamz0r

I hope I didn't miss it, but I didn't notice anyone mentioning isosceles or equilateral triangles in their nearfield speaker placement opinions.

I had always just placed the speakers "where they looked cool".
Now, since setting them up in an equilateral triangle, I am getting a really nice stereo image that is so much better...like night and day!

Hmmm, read my first post ...

[Jamz0r]

Ah, yes...

"The distance between you and the speakers is also a factor. Assuming you're following the the equilateral triangle rule, placing the tweeters to the outside may sound better if you're up close and the speakers are not spread out as far."

Okay....yeah that!

[NYMorningstar]

For those that have active monitors, wouldn't heat disapation be a consideration when laying them on theirs sides? I know know mine get pretty hot.

[COOLCAT]

FordVan,
This is the Bob Hodas article on sub-woofers and directionalityz.
Not to print links..but here's the other side of that debate...using the ears.
It may be the overtones?

Stereo Subwoofers -
I am a very firm believer in stereo subwoofers. It is a common misconception that we cannot hear bass directionality. People often say that bass is omnidirectional and subwoofer room position is not important. I believe this misconception developed because of the way bass is treated when cutting lacquer masters for records. Frequencies below 200Hz are combined to mono in case there is any low frequency phase problems. Out of phase bass would make the lathe cutting head jump off the lacquer. So for many years we never had a chance to hear stereo bass. With the digital age this is no longer a problem. You can experiment by placing your subwoofer off to one side and see if you can hear its location. I'm sure you will. If you only use a mono subwoofer then it is very important that you place the subwoofer symmetrically between your speakers. Placing the subwoofer off to one side or the other will cause a non-symmetrical response in the left and right speakers at the crossover point. This is based on the uneven distance of the left/right speakers to subwoofer and will require more equalization to balance the system.

http://www.bobhodas.com/pub3.html

[gtrman_66]

Standing up, tweter up top, ear level about with tweeter, roughly an equalateral triangle. Then I play some reference material and move 'em around a bit until I find a "sweet spot" I like.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by NYMorningstar

For those that have active monitors, wouldn't heat disapation be a consideration when laying them on theirs sides? I know know mine get pretty hot.

That may possibly be a consideration, depending upon the physical design. I can only speak to my 824s, in which the amps are towards the rear with plenty of heat sink ventilation designed in to the top and both sides (the bottom is where the I/O jacks are located.)

In theory, it might perhaps actually be more efficient heat-wise to put them on their sides, for two reasons based upon the fact that heat rises: first, the amount of ventilation across the top of the amp enclosure will actually be larger when the enclosure is on it's side since the side is longer than the nominal top; second, because the heat as less distance to travel from bottom to top of the enclosure before it escape out of the enclosure. Assuming (and yes, this is just an assumption) that the two amplifiers are stacked vertically inside the enclosure, when you orient it sideways, the amps are now next to each other instead of stacked; the heat from the bass amp is not rising right into the treble amp.

That said, I have my 824s vertical and have used them for 10-hour sessions or more and never had a problem with the heat, and would not expect it with a horizontal orientation either.

G.

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by COOLCAT

FordVan,
This is the Bob Hodas article on sub-woofers and directionalityz.
Not to print links..but here's the other side of that debate...using the ears.
It may be the overtones?

Stereo Subwoofers -
I am a very firm believer in stereo subwoofers. It is a common misconception that we cannot hear bass directionality. People often say that bass is omnidirectional and subwoofer room position is not important. I believe this misconception developed because of the way bass is treated when cutting lacquer masters for records. Frequencies below 200Hz are combined to mono in case there is any low frequency phase problems. Out of phase bass would make the lathe cutting head jump off the lacquer. So for many years we never had a chance to hear stereo bass. With the digital age this is no longer a problem. You can experiment by placing your subwoofer off to one side and see if you can hear its location. I'm sure you will. If you only use a mono subwoofer then it is very important that you place the subwoofer symmetrically between your speakers. Placing the subwoofer off to one side or the other will cause a non-symmetrical response in the left and right speakers at the crossover point. This is based on the uneven distance of the left/right speakers to subwoofer and will require more equalization to balance the system.

http://www.bobhodas.com/pub3.html

The lower the frequency, the harder it is to hear EXACTLY where it comes from. I will not argue that there are benefits to having the sub symmetrical to the highs in a room, but again, this has more to do with time alignment issues, not stereo imaging issues as much. If you moved a sub three feet in a room, you would never know the difference from a stereo image perspective. But if you placed two tweeters about 1' apart, you could easily point to exactly where each of them are while blind folded. I know this from experience, as me and some fellow sound engineers used to geek on shit like that.

You run a 50Hz sine wave through a speaker cleanly, and have somebody moving that speaker around you while you are blind folded, and they set it down somewhere and ask you to point where it is sitting, and do this several times, you would point to the wrong spot many more times than you would point to the right spot of the speaker.

Try it some time. Also, start moving the frequency of the sine wave up. Notice how you will more reliably point to the location of the speaker proportional to the frequency of the sine wave getting higher.

You can experiment yourself if you like.

[masteringhouse]

Let's not forget the effect that room modes have on hearing bass and the resulting overtones. If you placed a sub outside or in an anechoic chamber localization would be much more difficult (talking bass in a pure sense).

Since speakers more often are actually in a room, dual subs are a good idea.

Theory and practice are often contradictory.