Levels (Tracking & Mixing)

[joswil44]

I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on Levels.


1.) When Tracking an instrument whether it be drums or guitar, do you want the level to be peaking at 0, or as high as you can without clipping or hitting RED on your meters?


2.) When mixing, should the overall levels be at 0 on the Stereo Output?


I realize that a kick drum at -5 and a Bass Guitar at -4 could end up at -2 or so on the Output level. But adding guitars and vocals and much more you could end up at +7 in the end. Judging on results the higher the output the more noise in the final product.

I can see that when I run my mix through my TC Finalizer 96K it ends up at 0 on the final mix.

Any Professional CD I import a song from is at 0.

Seems as though when my final Output into the Finalizer is at 0 my mix is quieter than when I am at +4 or +5.

Is it just a lack of balance representing all frequencies in the mix that cause the quietness?

Thanks.

[legionserial]

Peaking at 0 is far too hot. If you have like 20 tracks all peaking at 0, with all the faders at unity, the result is more than likely going to be you'll have to pull the master fader way, way down to stop the mix clipping..
Also if one track is peaking at 0 or therabouts, and its not loud enough, you are going to have to turn everything else down instead of just turning that track up, because you aren't going to be able to pull it up any higher without it clipping itself.

I generally record guitars and bass with an average around -18dbfs on each track, I don't let any peaks go higher than -6, but thats a stretch, they are usually lower. Drums for me peak no higher than -6dbfs, as they don't have quite as much dynamic range. Other people do it different ways, some people go for an average of -12. Either way you probably don't want any peaks higher than -6dbfs. Peaking at 0 is going to give you no headroom at all, and in the end you probably won't be able to get your tune as loud without squashing the living crap out of it with a lucifer...oops I mean limiter.

That said I am far from an expert so don't take my words as gospel.

[joswil44]

I actually meant that all of the tracks combined at the Output was at 0.

But I understand what your saying.

And from the standpoint of headroom, what would be the method of getting the volume back in the track so its not quiet?


I guess it would be nice to explain on here a simulation of how you would treat an individual track from Recording to Mixing to Final Master.

Say my Mackie Meter Bridge is green up to +4, yellow in the +7 and red at +9 or 10.

From a scale of -60 to + 10 what are we aiming for in the tracking stage?

And once each track is recorded, I am assuming we are bringing down each track in volume until you find your perfect mix and the overall output of that mix is at a certain level. Such as 0?

Tracks might range between -18 and -4 etc.

I have kinda gathered that part but I am mainly wondering what the starting point should be and what the final mix should be.

I have done several variations of levels start and finish and had hit and miss results.

Im just looking for the right steps every time.

[TuoKaerf]

Originally Posted by joswil44

I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on Levels.

1.) When Tracking an instrument whether it be drums or guitar, do you want the level to be peaking at 0, or as high as you can without clipping or hitting RED on your meters?

You don't need to be tracking that hot. First off, you leave no room to apply any plugins, and as said before, when summed you will be overloading your stereo buss.

Originally Posted by joswil44

2.) When mixing, should the overall levels be at 0 on the Stereo Output?

I realize that a kick drum at -5 and a Bass Guitar at -4 could end up at -2 or so on the Output level. But adding guitars and vocals and much more you could end up at +7 in the end. Judging on results the higher the output the more noise in the final product.

I can see that when I run my mix through my TC Finalizer 96K it ends up at 0 on the final mix.

Any Professional CD I import a song from is at 0.

Seems as though when my final Output into the Finalizer is at 0 my mix is quieter than when I am at +4 or +5.

Is it just a lack of balance representing all frequencies in the mix that cause the quietness?

Thanks.

That's because you are comparing your mix to a professionally mastered CD. Your mix isn't going to be as loud.

[Massive Master]

I'm with legionserial for the most part there. The number of people that *don't* understand basic gain-staging is pretty staggering. 0dBVU has been the standard for over 60 years. In digital, that's *generally* going to equal a RMS level around -20 to -18 ish. Sometimes lower (which is fine) sometimes a little higher (which is scary).

But generally speaking, "near clipping" in digital is usually "really distorted" in analog. That headroom is there for a reason - But for some unknown reason, people want to eat it all up at every possible chance. It certainly isn't going to make a louder finished product (usually it prevents it pretty well actually).

Mixing - Same thing. RMS levels around -20 (I shoot quite a bit lower, as I appreciate and crave the headroom available in 24-bit) are wonderful. On the average rock/pop/HH/R&B type mix, -20dBRMS is a nice place to be for more than a few reasons.

You're tracking way too hot. You're mixing way too hot. You're never going to get a "hot" recording like that.

Any Professional CD I import a song from is at 0.

Any professional CD wasn't tracked and mixed too hot. And it was tracked and mixed and mastered by professionals (hence the "professional" part).

That said, I'm not certain of your skills & experience. But judging by the questions, I'm assuming that there's some understanding of the basics to do.

[joswil44]

Well put.

And to be quite honest, I am just one of those guys who started in a band and realized that I was paying too much money for a studio to record me when I could invest that money into my own equipment.

I got myself a PowerMac G4, Nuendo, a Mackie 32 Channel 8 Bus, Converters, Compressor, Mic Preamp, Nice Mics and quickly learned that it didnt mean crap when you dont know how to use it all or understand how sound works.

My first recordings were horrible.

4 years later I am way better at it.

Perhaps going back to some of my books based on what you guys are telling me now might reveal some things I didnt translate correctly at the time.

[iqi616]

I'm with Massive on this one. Getting away from tracking "hot" to tracking at sensible levels makes for easier mixes and takes away a whole heap of stress while tracking. I didn't understand it myself until I tried it.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by iqi616

I'm with Massive on this one. Getting away from tracking "hot" to tracking at sensible levels makes for easier mixes and takes away a whole heap of stress while tracking. I didn't understand it myself until I tried it.

Totally, I remember the smile that creeped across my face as I listened to an unmixed tune that I had tracked properly for the first time. It sounded way nicer unmixed than any of the finshed tunes I had tracked too hot. And it was an absolute joy to mix. for the first time I wasn't tearing my hair out. It makes an absolutely massive difference.

Also, having your final mix peaking at 0 is way too high, and gives literally no room for the mastering engineer to work his magic.

[K.P.]

Originally Posted by legionserial

... the smile that creeped across my face as I listened to an unmixed tune that I had tracked properly for the first time. It sounded way nicer unmixed than any of the finshed tunes I had tracked too hot. And it was an absolute joy to mix. for the first time I wasn't tearing my hair out. It makes an absolutely massive difference.
...

makes a huge difference...

[RedStone]

Listen to Obi-wan ... ahh I mean, Massive

[joswil44]

So lets see if I am getting this straight.

According to my readings again and what a few people posted here:


Tracking input levels should be peaking around -4 to -6db.


Mixing, the Master Outputs should be around -20db?

Leaving room for the Mastering to take place which brings it back to 0db?


So if I am doing a quick demo that is not going to be mastered by a professional, then it should be around a normal CD volume.

And to get the track to 0db, it would be best to do it by means of Mastering Techniques such as Compression, Limiting, Normalization etc, than to just turn up the track levels to bring the master volume to 0db?

Is this correct so far?

[RedStone]

Originally Posted by joswil44

So lets see if I am getting this straight.

According to my readings again and what a few people posted here:

Tracking input levels should be peaking around -4 to -6db.

Mixing, the Master Outputs should be around -20db?

other way around: track to line level and mix to -4 or -6 ... then things should be pretty well as peachy as they get with your gear.

[gtrman_66]

Originally Posted by joswil44

So lets see if I am getting this straight.

According to my readings again and what a few people posted here:


Tracking input levels should be peaking around -4 to -6db.


Mixing, the Master Outputs should be around -20db?

Leaving room for the Mastering to take place which brings it back to 0db?


So if I am doing a quick demo that is not going to be mastered by a professional, then it should be around a normal CD volume.

And to get the track to 0db, it would be best to do it by means of Mastering Techniques such as Compression, Limiting, Normalization etc, than to just turn up the track levels to bring the master volume to 0db?

Is this correct so far?

No. I don't know exactly how your setup is calibrated, but in 24 bit you can easily track the hottest sources (snare drum etc.) you have peaking somewhere between -18 and -12 on the majority of the peaks and come out just fine. Sure, a few stray peaks may run up to -6 or so and that's ok, as long as those are the exception and not the rule.

I started out on analog decks years ago, first a teac 3340, then an 80-8. Once you had levels set, it would generally bounce around just above and below zeroVU, which I believe is roughly equivalent to -18 on the digital dbfs scale. wasn't uncommon for a hot peak or 3 to slam or peg the needles momentarily. We didn't worry too much as long as they didn't stay there(hey, it was analog!)

The same thing might happen with digital after a fashion, but realize, the equivalent (more or less) of analog tape "pegging the needles" during digital tracking should be the occasional runup of the meters to around -6 or so NOT hitting the clip indicator at the top of the scale.

When mixing down, having most peaks between -9 and -6 with the occasional runup to -3 or so is plenty hot. An average of -20 or so is good as John mentioned. Most DAW software has a scan function that will display info including RMS averages to help you get the feel and in the ball park for your mixdown levels.

Just remember, tracking and mixdown is not the part of the process to be concerned about "getting it loud." It's the part of the process that's about getting sweet tones cleanly recorded. Leave the loud part for the Mastering engineer you ship it off to.






Or, destroy it yourself with an L2

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by joswil44

So lets see if I am getting this straight.

According to my readings again and what a few people posted here:


Tracking input levels should be peaking around -4 to -6db.


Mixing, the Master Outputs should be around -20db?

Leaving room for the Mastering to take place which brings it back to 0db?


So if I am doing a quick demo that is not going to be mastered by a professional, then it should be around a normal CD volume.

And to get the track to 0db, it would be best to do it by means of Mastering Techniques such as Compression, Limiting, Normalization etc, than to just turn up the track levels to bring the master volume to 0db?

Is this correct so far?

I don't know; it totally depends on where and whether you're referring to the analog domain and where and when you're talking about the digital domain, and what dB scale you're using. You can't just say "dB" without specifying what kind of dB you're referring to, because they all mean something different.

G.

[TuoKaerf]

On my first few mixes, I am very guilty of trying to have a total finished product after 6 hours, mastered and all.

Force yourself to mix quiet. Turn your monitors down to a level that you can easially talk over. Focus on making all of your tracks fit and gel down at this low volume. I only listen "loud" in the absolute final bit of a mix. This keeps your ears from getting fatigued, and when your ears start to go you get creeping fader syndrome.

When you are confident you have a good mix, don't touch it for a few days. Go back to it a few days later and give it a shot at mastering.

[Tim Gillett]

Originally Posted by gtrman_66

Just remember, tracking and mixdown is not the part of the process to be concerned about "getting it loud." It's the part of the process that's about getting sweet tones cleanly recorded. Leave the loud part for the Mastering engineer you ship it off to.





Or, destroy it yourself with an L2

Good advice.

It's impossible to accurately tell someone which level they should be peaking their tracks at. It depends on for a start on the equipment. It you have really good, quiet converters you can track at quieter levels than with noiser cheaper ones. Pro gear spoils you in that respect.

But the principle is making sure:
1. recorder noise isnt intruding at the low end and
2. clipping isnt happening at the high end.

That's tracking, period.

If a track actually just peaks at OdbFS then no harm is done. You have a complete, undistorted track. Trouble is it's almost impossible to arrange that state of affairs and with good gear there's no need to anyway. With live recording you dont know just what will be the peak level in the file until it's done, and then if it's clipped it's too late. Conservative levels are really all about safety margins and allowing for the unexpected. And the quieter your gear, the more conservative you can afford to be.
In older days they just had to track hot (or use compression) or gain ride because that was the only way to keep above the system noise. Today even home gear can be way quieter than the old days pro stuff so there's no need to track as high for that reason.

gtrman 66 is spot on. Tracking is not mixing or mastering. When tracking you shouldnt even be thinking about those later steps.

Tim

[ecktronic]

Slap a limiter on the input but still dont go for too hot levels. I recorded bass guitar last night which was around -17dB RMS, peaking at -0.3

Eck

[iqi616]

Originally Posted by joswil44

And to get the track to 0db, it would be best to do it by means of Mastering Techniques such as Compression, Limiting, Normalization etc, than to just turn up the track levels to bring the master volume to 0db?

When you're at the mastering stage and you want to bring up the volume, simply turning up the levels is a perfectly valid technique. Normalization is an automated way of doing that. If it's not loud enough after normalizing, then it's time for compression/limiting. If it's too loud, use the faders to set the desired level instead of normalizing.

[peritus]

Originally Posted by iqi616

When you're at the mastering stage and you want to bring up the volume, simply turning up the levels is a perfectly valid technique. Normalization is an automated way of doing that. If it's not loud enough after normalizing, then it's time for compression/limiting. If it's too loud, use the faders to set the desired level instead of normalizing.

I started an alternate thread about this and closed it... but I'd still like to know the very best way to achieve the "restoration of order", when I'm given a recording that was tracked too high...

Would a "mastering limiter" (Waves L1, L2, L3) with 0 threshold and lowered output offer any quality improvement to just puling down the faders?

[gtrman_66]

Originally Posted by Tim Gillett

It's impossible to accurately tell someone which level they should be peaking their tracks at. It depends on for a start on the equipment.

I'll agree with that. As far as dbfs on the digital scale, it seems there can be some variation depending on where 0dbvu translates to dbfs on your particular equipment. There seems to be a lot of gear referenced at 0dbvu= -18dbfs. My HD-24 lands at around -15dbfs with a 0dbvu input signal.

So it seems that the important place to reference levels is at the analog stage before it hits the converters. If the analog chain you're using doesn't have a good vu reading meter, my guess would be to research the specs on your digital gear as to where 0dbvu is and set the levels on the dbfs meters accordingly?

The digital meters on the HD 24 aren't the model of accuracy.The segments go from -24 to -15 to -9. Gee, thanks alesis, right in the range where I need the most precision, it makes a 9db jump, then a 6db jump. Not a problem in the studio where I have some decent metering on my board, but when I rack it up in my live rig with my mini-mixers to do some mobile recording (which I have been doing a lot of lately) I have to rely on the HD's meters. Not too hard though, I generally keep them bouncing between the -24 and -15, drums popping the -9 periodically with no problem.

[iqi616]

Originally Posted by peritus

I started an alternate thread about this and closed it... but I'd still like to know the very best way to achieve the "restoration of order", when I'm given a recording that was tracked too high...

Would a "mastering limiter" (Waves L1, L2, L3) with 0 threshold and lowered output offer any quality improvement to just puling down the faders?

If something is too hot I think pulling down the faders is probably better than adding further processing unless you want to use a compressor with a slowish attack to try to synthesize some microdynamics. That's just an opinion though.

Later... Saw your locked thread. I didn't like those replies much. As you probably knew already it's the average level that needs to come down. So, I think I'd just pull down the faders and mix at your normal mixing level.

[Massive Master]

The digital meters on the HD 24 aren't the model of accuracy.The segments go from -24 to -15 to -9. Gee, thanks alesis, right in the range where I need the most precision, it makes a 9db jump, then a 6db jump.

That's the thing - You *don't* need that precision there. If you're lighting up the -24 mark, and once in a while the -15 lights up, you're right in the pocket.

[Cult_Status02]

Interesting, all this. I've always prefered tracking pretty hot. Basically in green but sometimes hitting yellow, never red. I feel like a huge newb right now, but how does track lower help make it sound better, or does it just make it easier to mix later on?

[iqi616]

Originally Posted by Cult_Status02

Interesting, all this. I've always prefered tracking pretty hot. Basically in green but sometimes hitting yellow, never red. I feel like a huge newb right now, but how does track lower help make it sound better, or does it just make it easier to mix later on?

Benefits...

tracking - less time worrying about overs and more time concentrating on the performer

mixing - faders don't end up way on down where their adjustments are coarser and if you mix to a similar target level you won't have situations where the mix is clipping and you are forced to go through the mix pulling all the faders down (and ruining it in the process)

Also some people maintain that it's working at a more optimal level for the analogue input circuitry. I've not verified that but I'm happy to go along with the sugguestion.

[Massive Master]

Actually, that (the analog circuitry) IS the reason. All the other wonderful things that go along with it (ease of mixing, clarity in sound, spaciousness and "air," effective EQ'ing and dynamics tweaking, etc., etc., etc and down the line) are things that are supposed to b there in the first place. That's how the gear is designed to run - ALWAYS has been. Digital was NEVER meant to change the working level of the input chain - It was implemented with those levels in mind.

And the effectiveness is so simple to verify -

Set up a good mic in the vicinity of a god speaker -

Play a 1k tone through the speaker -

Adjust the mic preamp to get a solid signal - Around 0dBVU, which should give you a digital level of around -18dBFS. Record a bit of that.

Then boost the preamp so you get a digital level of around -12 and record some of that. Then around -9, then around -6.

Open up a decent spectrum analyzer and analyze the -18 file... You'll see a gentle "swoop" up to 1k and back down.

Open up the -12 file and you'll very likely notice "devil horns" at 2k and 3k. On the -9, you'll probably clearly see spikes at 2, 3 and maybe 4k. You probably won't even want to see the -6 file...

And that's with a steady and "pure" tone - Just think of what it's like with a complex sound like a guitar or a human voice...