What position is your R2R in?

[amphony]

Hey folks,

Just wondering what position you keep your machine in? I used to have my Fostex E-16 on a Quick Lok rack that was in a permanent 45 degree angle. It seemed to work out for the size of the room I was. This was in an apartment, mind you. After I moved into a home I kept the E-16 out of the rack and let it stand on it's own on my Mid Atlantic desk. I soon started to get tempermental problems (flutter). After replacing the pinch roller and the capstan motor, it continued on with it's fluttery behavior. I recently purchased an original Fostex rack for the E series machines. It rotates completely on it's back. NOW I have know problems with flutter even though I constantly clean my machine. I'm convinced this particular machine just works better on it's back. Also, the fast forward and rewind spool so smoothly onto the other reel. It's fun just to watch.

Let me know if I'm crazy because the recordings sound better.

[cjacek]

That's odd. I've never heard of that before. I think your deck is in need of attention BUT if you're getting a good response with the recorder in a different position then continue recording. If it sounds good then you're alright, at least for now.

[The Ghost of FM]

Operating any reel to reel deck on its back is of benefit to the reel motor's bearing and armature assembly because you have eliminated any gravity stresses. Generally, the thicker the format of tape, the more important this becomes and it's also why if you look at any 2" format decks, they'll exclusively be offered in this horizontal orientation only. It's also beneficial for cleaning routines.

Capstan motors and flywheel assemblies can also benefit from this orientation and especially so on decks with questionable mechanical fitness.

Cheers!

[ofajen]

Most of my machines have been in roll around consoles where the transport is in a horizontal orientation (actually the 3M consoles incline the transport slightly). The M-23-2 is the exception. It is a rack mount version. The transport has a spring that needs to be attached when operated in the vertical position to make the tension work properly. It's not too bad operating a small format 3M in vertical position since it has such a rigid deck plate (machined from a cast aluminum plate a little over 1.5" thick) but I much prefer to load and unload tape on a horizontal transport anyway, so that's the way it is oriented. Now if I would just make the time to complete its rehab!

Cheers,

Otto

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by amphony

Hey folks,

Just wondering what position you keep your machine in? I used to have my Fostex E-16 on a Quick Lok rack that was in a permanent 45 degree angle. It seemed to work out for the size of the room I was. This was in an apartment, mind you. After I moved into a home I kept the E-16 out of the rack and let it stand on it's own on my Mid Atlantic desk. I soon started to get tempermental problems (flutter). After replacing the pinch roller and the capstan motor, it continued on with it's fluttery behavior. I recently purchased an original Fostex rack for the E series machines. It rotates completely on it's back. NOW I have know problems with flutter even though I constantly clean my machine. I'm convinced this particular machine just works better on it's back. Also, the fast forward and rewind spool so smoothly onto the other reel. It's fun just to watch.

Let me know if I'm crazy because the recordings sound better.

Horizontal (MCI 24 track 2") and 20 deg (FOSTEX e-16s).

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of FM

Operating any reel to reel deck on its back is of benefit to the reel motor's bearing and armature assembly because you have eliminated any gravity stresses. Generally, the thicker the format of tape, the more important this becomes and it's also why if you look at any 2" format decks, they'll exclusively be offered in this horizontal orientation only. It's also beneficial for cleaning routines.

Capstan motors and flywheel assemblies can also benefit from this orientation and especially so on decks with questionable mechanical fitness.

Cheers!

The main reason 2" decks lie flat has to do with the heft and weight of the transport top plate. The 2" machines really suffer from flexing and my MCI 24 track deck's top plate weighs about 150lbs and has to support 2 40lb motors, capstan etc. The deck weighs 550lbs and a lion's share of that weight is in the transport section (I had to dissassemble this deck to move it and I know that when stripped, the final transport assembly is still fuggin heavy) There is no way they can place it vertically. The stresses are pretty large and one reason why early 70s pro 2" decks were really unreliable. All the later Studers, MCIs and Otaris have seriously hefty top decks.

[krhall]

Both My Revox PR99 MK3 and my Fostex Model 80 operate in vertticle possition and so far have had no problems. Also as i am in a pretty small room it saves space to use them vertically.

Keith

[cjacek]

...but, guys, the deck in question (E16) is well under 100 lbs and is 1/2". I can understand much heavier and wider formats needing to be horizontal and the benefits for all decks being in such orientation but if an E16 has the said issues, as outlined by the original poster, then the deck has problems, especially that all such semi-pro gear was designed to operate vertically as well.

[The Ghost of FM]

Originally Posted by cjacek

...but, guys, the deck in question (E16) is well under 100 lbs and is 1/2". I can understand much heavier and wider formats needing to be horizontal and the benefits for all decks being in such orientation but if an E16 has the said issues, as outlined by the original poster, then the deck has problems, especially that all such semi-pro gear was designed to operate vertically as well.

My answer remains the same. The deck will benefit from a horizontal orientation. If he can affort to get it fixed, ( possible flywheel bearings and belt change), as well, that's his decision.

Cheers!

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by The Ghost of FM

My answer remains the same. The deck will benefit from a horizontal orientation. If he can affort to get it fixed, ( possible flywheel bearings and belt change), as well, that's his decision.

Oh yeah, no doubt Jeff and I do subscribe to that view, as my last reply indicates, that it makes total sense that all decks can benefit from such a horizontal orientation but, on the other hand, the E16 certainly should not be having the said problems in a vertical setup. Again, I wasn't questioning your advice at all.

[amphony]

Originally Posted by cjacek

...but, guys, the deck in question (E16) is well under 100 lbs and is 1/2". I can understand much heavier and wider formats needing to be horizontal and the benefits for all decks being in such orientation but if an E16 has the said issues, as outlined by the original poster, then the deck has problems, especially that all such semi-pro gear was designed to operate vertically as well.

All I can say is that in it's current position, it's working like a champ. I definetely need to stay on top of maintaining the pinch roller and capstan. But that's just standard for any machine. Am I right? Also, I recently switched from Quantegy 499 to 456. I wonder if the thickness of the 499 while running in vertical and 45 degree positions may have caused a problem. I switched to 456 on a recomendation from the tech who did the recal.

Now the thing is kickin' major booty! Not quite Studer-like, but fun just the same. I love watchin' them reels spinnin' round and round. And who doesn't love when you're opening up that box of tape and you get that whiff???

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by amphony

All I can say is that in it's current position, it's working like a champ.

Then don't worry about it, till you feel you want to get it checked over, as Ghost of FM (Jeff) suggests.

I definetely need to stay on top of maintaining the pinch roller and capstan. But that's just standard for any machine. Am I right?

Of course. If the pinch roller is 5 - 10 years old, you certainly want to either replace it or have it re-rubbered. A bad one will cause excessive wow & flutter.

Also, I recently switched from Quantegy 499 to 456. I wonder if the thickness of the 499 while running in vertical and 45 degree positions may have caused a problem. I switched to 456 on a recomendation from the tech who did the recal.

Good move. IMHO, there is no reason to go with anything above 456 for these types of machines.

Now the thing is kickin' major booty! Not quite Studer-like, but fun just the same. I love watchin' them reels spinnin' round and round. And who doesn't love when you're opening up that box of tape and you get that whiff???

Couldn't agree with you more.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by cjacek

...but, guys, the deck in question (E16) is well under 100 lbs and is 1/2". I can understand much heavier and wider formats needing to be horizontal and the benefits for all decks being in such orientation but if an E16 has the said issues, as outlined by the original poster, then the deck has problems, especially that all such semi-pro gear was designed to operate vertically as well.

The deck should not have this problem. I agree. It needs a transport alignment as it has direct drive motors (no belts) and capstan. The reel tables and tension arms tend to go out of alignment really bad.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by amphony

Hey folks,

Just wondering what position you keep your machine in? I used to have my Fostex E-16 on a Quick Lok rack that was in a permanent 45 degree angle. It seemed to work out for the size of the room I was. This was in an apartment, mind you. After I moved into a home I kept the E-16 out of the rack and let it stand on it's own on my Mid Atlantic desk. I soon started to get tempermental problems (flutter). After replacing the pinch roller and the capstan motor, it continued on with it's fluttery behavior. I recently purchased an original Fostex rack for the E series machines. It rotates completely on it's back. NOW I have know problems with flutter even though I constantly clean my machine. I'm convinced this particular machine just works better on it's back. Also, the fast forward and rewind spool so smoothly onto the other reel. It's fun just to watch.

Let me know if I'm crazy because the recordings sound better.

Mine's angled back.

Machines like the Fostex E-16 or TASCAM MSR-16 were technically speaking made to rest flat or stand upright. However, machines that are angled back or completely horizontal seem to hold up better over time. When the the TSR-8 and MSR-16 were new, TASCAM engineering people recommended they be mounted on their backs for best results (though marketing division downplayed the question ).

There are a couple issues here. Reel motor bearings in general wear faster over time under lateral loading.

The other issue is the quality of the plastic reel clampers. Ideally the weight of the reel should do the work of holding itself to the reel table. Plastic clampers are notoriously short-lived on machines mounted upright. As they wear the plastic cracks and stretches, resulting in poorly balanced rotation.

The capstan/pinch roller action is the greatest factor for smooth tape transport, but a loose, floppy reel will have an impact.

Another thing to be aware of is that with a less than perfectly even surface your machine may actually end up angled slightly forward (even if you can’t detect it visually without using a level). This is a worst case scenario for the motors and reel clampers.

So while the original owners may not have experienced immediate problems with vertical mounting, it's not surprising that people are seeing problems now in 20-year-old machines.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by Beck

Mine's angled back.

Machines like the Fostex E-16 or TASCAM MSR-16 were technically speaking made to rest flat or stand upright. However, machines that are angled back or completely horizontal seem to hold up better over time. When the the TSR-8 and MSR-16 were new, TASCAM engineering people recommended they be mounted on their backs for best results (though marketing division downplayed the question ).

There are a couple issues here. Reel motor bearings in general wear faster over time under lateral loading.

The other issue is the quality of the plastic reel clampers. Ideally the weight of the reel should do the work of holding itself to the reel table. Plastic clampers are notoriously short-lived on machines mounted upright. As they wear the plastic cracks and stretches, resulting in poorly balanced rotation.

The capstan/pinch roller action is the greatest factor for smooth tape transport, but a loose, floppy reel will have an impact.

Another thing to be aware of is that with a less than perfectly even surface your machine may actually end up angled slightly forward (even if you can’t detect it visually without using a level). This is a worst case scenario for the motors and reel clampers.

So while the original owners may not have experienced immediate problems with vertical mounting, it's not surprising that people are seeing problems now in 20-year-old machines.

My E-16 (1 of them) has been operating since 1988 in the upright position. My brother's E-16 has been in the same position since 1992, a few of my friend's E-16s have been in that position for well over 10 years. All machines are in great shape and work just fine. The only FOSTEX machines that DID take a pounding were the B-16s that were belt driven.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by MCI2424

My E-16 (1 of them) has been operating since 1988 in the upright position. My brother's E-16 has been in the same position since 1992, a few of my friend's E-16s have been in that position for well over 10 years. All machines are in great shape and work just fine. The only FOSTEX machines that DID take a pounding were the B-16s that were belt driven.

And I think you and your kin will continue to be just fine as long as you keep your E-16s lined up against that south wall.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by Beck

And I think you and your kin will continue to be just fine as long as you keep your E-16s lined up against that south wall.

No. Please post an example of an E-16 that was ruined by running it in the vertical position. We are waiting because we want to know how much it is hurting our decks. Please post some pictures of the plastic hubs breaking or bearings crushing or wearing. I would like to know now that you opened the door. You must have some definite examples to show us.

[Beck]

Well sure… why not? After all, you did say please. I think I can ignore statistical data and even elementary physics just this once to share some MCI2424 style anecdotal “evidence.”

I'm sure the members here will find the input below at least as credible and helpful as anything ever posted by MCI2424…

My little sister’s E-16 started having issues within months… she had it mounted upright despite my recommendation she at least angle it back. My Niece’s E-16 is in about the same condition… but she takes after her mother. My great aunt Clara’s E-16s have held up the best (she has three). They are mounted completely horizontal. Aunt Clara hasn’t been able to do much recording since her stroke back in ’96, but she’s kept the machines running faithfully since she dragged them out of the boxes new. (She’ll be 103 come March, so we’re all very proud of her).

My next-door neighbor, Luther, has his E-16 mounted flat and it’s had no issues at all in almost 20 years. However, Ollie, who lives across the street, mounted his vertically and it’s been in and out of the shop now many times… still doesn’t work right though.

The only person I know of that has had major issues with a horizontally mounted E-16 is Pastor Herbert Von Langholse of First Lutheran. His E-16 has been chugging away night and day in the choir loft for a good 16 years now. Trouble is his dog, Heimlich, likes to curl up on top of it in the winter. As a result the reel tables have slipped down the motor shafts and are touching the front plate.

Over the years deep circular patterns have worn into the front of the machine where the reels are touching. Pastor Langholse likes how Heimlich howls when the reels make the high-pitched squealing noise as they turn. The combination of Heimlich’s voice with the current wow & flutter of roughly 39% has a sort of celestial Yoko Ono feel when recorded in the church. Mr. Kelsey, the church janitor, has his E-16 mounted horizontally in the organ loft of the old Simmons place, and it’s been running fine sine 1987. He doesn't have any pets.

All in all the E-16 owners are a great bunch and a powerful lobby, as they outnumber the Republicans and Democrats here by 2-to-1. Every 4th of July they put on funny hats and ride their E-16s in the parade. Heimlich rides piggyback with Pastor Langholse, which is always a big hit with the kids.

They say a person is never more than three people away from someone who says they know someone that owns a Fostex E-16 (or two), so I think MCI’s and my experience are fairly typical… just a slice of Americana.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by Beck

Well sure… why not? After all, you did say please. I think I can ignore statistical data and even elementary physics just this once to share some MCI2424 style anecdotal “evidence.”

I'm sure the members here will find the input below at least as credible and helpful as anything ever posted by MCI2424…

My little sister’s E-16 started having issues within months… she had it mounted upright despite my recommendation she at least angle it back. My Niece’s E-16 is in about the same condition… but she takes after her mother. My great aunt Clara’s E-16s have held up the best (she has three). They are mounted completely horizontal. Aunt Clara hasn’t been able to do much recording since her stroke back in ’96, but she’s kept the machines running faithfully since she dragged them out of the boxes new. (She’ll be 103 come March, so we’re all very proud of her).

My next-door neighbor, Luther, has his E-16 mounted flat and it’s had no issues at all in almost 20 years. However, Ollie, who lives across the street, mounted his vertically and it’s been in and out of the shop now many times… still doesn’t work right though.

The only person I know of that has had major issues with a horizontally mounted E-16 is Pastor Herbert Von Langholse of First Lutheran. His E-16 has been chugging away night and day in the choir loft for a good 16 years now. Trouble is his dog, Heimlich, likes to curl up on top of it in the winter. As a result the reel tables have slipped down the motor shafts and are touching the front plate.

Over the years deep circular patterns have worn into the front of the machine where the reels are touching. Pastor Langholse likes how Heimlich howls when the reels make the high-pitched squealing noise as they turn. The combination of Heimlich’s voice with the current wow & flutter of roughly 39% has a sort of celestial Yoko Ono feel when recorded in the church. Mr. Kelsey, the church janitor, has his E-16 mounted horizontally in the organ loft of the old Simmons place, and it’s been running fine sine 1987. He doesn't have any pets.

All in all the E-16 owners are a great bunch and a powerful lobby, as they outnumber the Republicans and Democrats here by 2-to-1. Every 4th of July they put on funny hats and ride their E-16s in the parade. Heimlich rides piggyback with Pastor Langholse, which is always a big hit with the kids.

They say a person is never more than three people away from someone who says they know someone that owns a Fostex E-16 (or two), so I think MCI’s and my experience are fairly typical… just a slice of Americana.

No answer. I guess you are just trying to make people scared to run their e-16 (which BTW HAS feet on the bottom AND the back making it designed for either position as well as stated in the manual) in the vertical position.

No examples, no experience, no shit. If you run an E-16 in the vertical position, and have problems, your machine needs repair.