Bus sends?

[ecktronic]

Does anyone know of a way to buss tracks to a channel so that the original tracks arent heard, but the bussed track is?
Is this even possible?

Im wanting to do this so I can send 2 guitar tracks to the buss channel and apply effects to the buss channel so I only hear the effected guitars and not the un effected guitars.

Cheers,
Eck

[bennychico11]

pre fader aux send. then mute the other tracks.

are we talking software or analog mixer?

[ecktronic]

Oops.
Im using Cubase.

Eck

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

pre fader aux send. then mute the other tracks.

are we talking software or analog mixer?

Ok, I did a pre fader send from each track to the buss track, but when I muted the original tracks it didnt send it to aux track. The only way I could get it to work was to unmute the tracks and pull the faders right down.
I now have to use the aux sends as my guitar volume controls which isnt the best, but as long as Im not using volume automation then I should be fine.

Cheers.
Eck

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Have you considered just copying the original tracks to new tracks, processing the new ones, and muting the originals?

G.

[7string]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Ok, I did a pre fader send from each track to the buss track, but when I muted the original tracks it didnt send it to aux track. The only way I could get it to work was to unmute the tracks and pull the faders right down.
I now have to use the aux sends as my guitar volume controls which isnt the best, but as long as Im not using volume automation then I should be fine.

Cheers.
Eck

That's because it's pre-FADER and not pre-mute.

[xstatic]

Just buss your channels to a group, and then insert the effect you want on that group with the effect being 100% wet.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by 7string

That's because it's pre-FADER and not pre-mute.

hmmm, that's odd.
I guess different programs do it different ways. Prefader send should be before mute/solo. I guess just pull the fader down instead.

[xstatic]

Actually, prefade should normally cut when the channel is cut as well. At least if you are assumoing it will act like hardware.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Actually, prefade should normally cut when the channel is cut as well. At least if you are assumoing it will act like hardware.

actually, it's the other way around.
pushing mute on a channel that has it's send to prefader should NOT affect what's going to the send. This is the whole reason for the pre fader. So no mute, solo, fader, even pan changes affect what's going to the aux send...typically a cue mix (therefore the engineer can solo tracks in the studio to listen to without effecting what the band is hearing)

Example:
From the Mackie 32-8 Manual

With the PRE switch depressed, Aux Sends 1&2 receive their input from a point before the channel fader and MUTE switch, and are not affected by changes in these controls. This is the normal setting for creating stage monitor and/or cue headphone sends.


This is the way it works in Pro Tools too. I can't think of any logical reason to make it so the mute button still affects a prefader send. Makes the prefader send pointless.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Have you considered just copying the original tracks to new tracks, processing the new ones, and muting the originals?

G.

Do you mean turning my 2 mono guitar tracks into a stereo guitar track so I save on plug-ins? I was trying to work out a way to use 1 set of plug ins for 2 guitar tracks,since it saves on cpu plus it makes it a hell of alot easier to tweak the guitar tracks at the same time rather than solo each and then copy the plug settings.

Eck

[MessianicDreams]

easy: set up your buss output and input, then take whatever tracks yer bussing out of the stereo buss!


or have it so that the tracks you don't want to hear don't have an output.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Do you mean turning my 2 mono guitar tracks into a stereo guitar track so I save on plug-ins? I was trying to work out a way to use 1 set of plug ins for 2 guitar tracks,since it saves on cpu plus it makes it a hell of alot easier to tweak the guitar tracks at the same time rather than solo each and then copy the plug settings.

Eck

Well, no, that's not quote what I meant, since I had no idea that's what you were looking to do .

But yeah, you could create a stem file, a sub mix of your guitars and run the effects on that while keeping the source tracks muted.

G.

[metalhead28]

You don't need to set up sends...
Just set the output of the individual tracks to a stereo bus and apply your effects there. Route the resulting "guitar" bus to your master.

Why would you need to mute anything?

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

You don't need to set up sends...
Just set the output of the individual tracks to a stereo bus and apply your effects there. Route the resulting "guitar" bus to your master.

Why would you need to mute anything?

that'll work too.
many different ways to do one thing

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

actually, it's the other way around.
pushing mute on a channel that has it's send to prefader should NOT affect what's going to the send. This is the whole reason for the pre fader. So no mute, solo, fader, even pan changes affect what's going to the aux send...typically a cue mix (therefore the engineer can solo tracks in the studio to listen to without effecting what the band is hearing)

Example:
From the Mackie 32-8 Manual

With the PRE switch depressed, Aux Sends 1&2 receive their input from a point before the channel fader and MUTE switch, and are not affected by changes in these controls. This is the normal setting for creating stage monitor and/or cue headphone sends.


This is the way it works in Pro Tools too. I can't think of any logical reason to make it so the mute button still affects a prefader send. Makes the prefader send pointless.

Actually, the Mackie mixer may do this, but that would be the first time I ever remember a board doing that. Prefade really would have nothing to do with solo's either. It is NORMAL for a channels signal to be completely muted (except often times the insert point) when a channel is muted. If it was not, than you would never be able to take a channel out of a mix that had any kind of prefade send. Headphone/cue mixes are typically made prefade for one reason.... so people listening to them do not have to listen to all the changes that the engineer is making for a different mix. Prefade allows the enigneer in the control room to solo and make his own mix for the control room without directly affecting the headphone mixes to the artists. Generally, it is a very bad idea to have a console channel stay open when muted. What if you were to quickly need to silence that channel?

With DAW software however I would imagine that there is an option for how prefade sends are treated. Even on actual consoles there are sometimes options. Usually this option is whether or not the EQ tracks to the prefade sends. As a point of reference, I would not assume that just because Mackie implemented something that it is standard for all consoles. I have consoles by Soundcraft, Yamaha, Midas, D&R, Allen Heath and even a couple little Mackie's. NONE of them leave a channel's prefade send open when the channel itself is muted.

[bennychico11]

You're right. It looks like this varies from console to console (particularly found in larger format). I'm just looking at the Allen & Heath ML3000 model and it offers post mute send...although they offer you the choice of also setting it pre-mute via an internal jumper.

It's been awhile since I've worked with larger format consoles that offer every option under the sun. I'm mostly all in the computer now. I guess it depends on the manufacturer and what they want to put on their mixer/console.
I just wouldn't ever want to mess up a headphone cue mix because I hit the mute button when trying to listen to something.

[xstatic]

I have an ML5000... I am not sure which jumpers it allows, but pre fade sends still mute when the channel is muted. This is a stock setting. In fact, they do on the ML3000 as well. I understand not wanting to accidentally mute a portion of the mix, but being able to mute something in a hurry is actually a much better option. This is especially true when dealing with live stage monitors which really surprises me that Mackie would say that a prefade send not being affected by a channel mute is standard. That in my opinion would be plain old wrong. I do like the option though of being able to do that, but I like it better as an internal jumper or at least a recessed button that can not accidentally be depressed. In my opinion this needs to be something that a person only activates when they are fully aware of all the ramifications.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

You don't need to set up sends...
Just set the output of the individual tracks to a stereo bus and apply your effects there. Route the resulting "guitar" bus to your master.

Why would you need to mute anything?

So you only hear the effected guitars and not the uneffected guitars that you are sending to the FX channel.

Eck

[Farview]

You need to set up a group channel. Set the output of the guitar channels to route to the group channel. Done.

Don't use the AUX, don't use FX channels.

[xstatic]

See my post from earlier... (#7)....

Several people since have given you the exact same recomendation....

That might be a good place to start

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Farview

You need to set up a group channel. Set the output of the guitar channels to route to the group channel. Done.

Don't use the AUX, don't use FX channels.

So your saying that using a group channel send the original channels to the group and you dont hear any fo the original channels tracks apart from through the group channel?
Im sure in Cubase SX3 it doesnt work like that. Seems that the group and FX channels are the same, just a different colour and a way of seperating your busses to avoid confusion.

Cheers all,
Eck

[7string]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Well, no, that's not quote what I meant, since I had no idea that's what you were looking to do .

But yeah, you could create a stem file, a sub mix of your guitars and run the effects on that while keeping the source tracks muted.

G.

I have also used this system but sometimes I would bring the source tracks up underneath the mix/effects guitars just a tad. It fattens them up a bit without affecting the mix/effects guitars.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

So your saying that using a group channel send the original channels to the group and you dont hear any fo the original channels tracks apart from through the group channel?
Im sure in Cubase SX3 it doesnt work like that. Seems that the group and FX channels are the same, just a different colour and a way of seperating your busses to avoid confusion.

Cheers all,
Eck

Don't use the sends!!!!

Open a channel by hitting the 'e' button. Above the fader, the pan control and the trim control and below the input selection, there is a box that selects the ouput of that channel. Set that to the group you want to send it to.

This is exactly how cubase SX works.

The difference between groups and fx channels is that the fx channels can't be bussed anywhere but the outputs.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

So your saying that using a group channel send the original channels to the group and you dont hear any fo the original channels tracks apart from through the group channel?
Im sure in Cubase SX3 it doesnt work like that. Seems that the group and FX channels are the same, just a different colour and a way of seperating your busses to avoid confusion.

Cheers all,
Eck

Actually, Cubase does work like this. If you route two individual channels to a group/bus using its main routing, then the only sound for those two channels will come from the group/buss. By inserting your effect on that buss and running it 100% wet in the effect itself you will be removing all dry sound from those two channels. You could also use a standard FX send the same way but route the two channels prefade down an aux to that effects channel and keep the faders all the way down for those two channels. The key here is that the effect needs to be 100% wet. You could even reassign the output for the two channels so that there is NO output and then run the aux send prefade to your FX channel, once again leaving the effect 100% wet. This way you could also comp, EQ etc... through the inserts on the original tracks and have those effects track to the FX send. There are many easy and quick ways of doing what you want. I just offered you three