Distorted Guitar Mixing

[rockabilly]

Hey guys. Well ive been learning all this recording stuff for a while now and am proud to say that I am getting alot better thanks to the readings of this forum!

The problem I continue to have is still with guitars. I finally learned some EQ techniques and making sure 2 guitars dont fight eachother on certain frequencies.

It seems like in the mix, the distorted guitar parts are always very dull, non lively, far away and can hardly tell changes in notes. I know the source sound is good, because when I listen to the guitar tracks by themselves, the guitar sounds great.

My vocals and bass sound fine in the mix. If I can just get those guitars mixing well, i feel my mixes would be where i want em.

Are there any tips anyone has when working with distorted guitars in a mix that you guys have found successfull (recording, eq, etc)?

I record direct with ToneLab....but dont think thats the problem since the recorded sounds are great....its just a problem in the mix.

Also is it bad to record distorted guitar sound with reverb or should I record it dry and add reverb later or not at all?

Note: I have the 2 different guitars (which is the same part, just different performances) panned out hard left and hard right and recorded in mono.

[Chris Shaeffer]

Reverb later. Definitely! Get a good mix dry, if you can, then add effects for... well, for effect.

Also- how is your low end? Bass and low mids can get *really* muddy very fast. There is a lot of energy in those frequncies and they can build up and squash your clarity pretty fast. I tend to roll off everything below 100hz or so on guitars. Leaves more room for the kick and bass. You can probably cut all the way up to 240 if you have a good bass sound, but it will sound different when you solo it. If I recall, 240 is twice the frequency of the lowest note a guitar can hit in standard tunining- Low E.

I know you like the sound of the guitars by themselves... but that doesn't mean the sound will work well in the mix. Could be that the bass and the guitars are fighting in the low mids and you're losing clarity. Try cutting the lows.

Also, are you compressing those guitars? Are they *heavily* distorted? Distortion compresses things "naturally" and adding more compression on top, if done poorly, will suck the life out of the take. No dynamics at all- which sounds like what you are describing.

Players who use heavy distortion tend to play very purcusively- they have little stops and starts in the playing to give the track more dynamics. They also tend to record with less distortion than most people think- try turning down the gain in the distortion a little. You'll usually find that TWO (or more) less distorted tracks sound more distorted than they are.

Most people try to get that huge sound with one guitar then record it twice. That gets you mud. Try backing off that gain and see if you like it. Its a balancing act.

Anyway, that's what comes to mind at the moment.

Take care,
Chris

[rockabilly]

thanks Chris for those great tips.

I will try your suggestions a try and see what happens. The idea of less gain makes alot of sense and I will try rolling off those lows on the guitars and let the bass and bass drum take hold of those lowers.

Another question about the reverb subject: Do people ever add reverb to the mix, instead of to each individual instrument?

[Uladine]

Originally Posted by rockabilly

I know the source sound is good, because when I listen to the guitar tracks by themselves, the guitar sounds great.

As Chris explained, and as absurd as this sounds, the tone of the guitars by themselves is pretty much irrelevant. Everything should compliment the mix. When you're working with your tones before recording, try to anticipate the mix. Keep in mind that other instruments are going to be crowding in with the guitars, and they're going to need they're own room. When you have tones that "anticipate" the rest of the mix, everything will almost fall into place on their own.

As far as the reverb thing, it depends on what you're going for. Think of reverb as a virtual room. What do you want to put in that room? Do you want the whole band in there, or just the guitars or snare or all the drums or just vocals? I say just experiment, its the fastest way to learn.

[acidrock]

I know you like the sound of the guitars by themselves... but that doesn't mean the sound will work well in the mix.

+1............

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Chris Shaeffer

I know you like the sound of the guitars by themselves... but that doesn't mean the sound will work well in the mix.
Chris

Im happy with the tone of my guitars for sure in the mix, but when soloed, they sound fekin awfull! Its about uing EQ to cut out parts of the guitars that make the mix sound to full. Try cutting the lo mids, the lo with a hi pass, a lo pass anywhere up to even 8K! Try cutting at 8K for harsh grainy sounds in distortion, and also around 2K for harsh presence.

Eck

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by rockabilly

It seems like in the mix, the distorted guitar parts are always very dull, non lively, far away and can hardly tell changes in notes. I know the source sound is good, because when I listen to the guitar tracks by themselves, the guitar sounds great.

Sounds very similar to what happens if you've pulled the midrange down on the amp. Make sure the guitars start off with enough midrange. A lot of guitarists pull the mids down when they are playing on their own becuase it sounds good on its own, but the guitars need those mids to cut through the mix, as thats kinda the main area they sit in.

[Chris Shaeffer]

Originally Posted by rockabilly

Another question about the reverb subject: Do people ever add reverb to the mix, instead of to each individual instrument?

I have, but I don't do that very often and usually for some specific reason: like making a studio recording sound about the same as a live recording that's next to it on a CD.

They way reverb works if you have a mixing board or a DAW is as a send and return. Instead of setting up individual reverbs for each sound, you set up 1 reverb and send bits of your mix to it. You send only a little of your lead vocal, for example, but more of the backing vocals- makes the backing vocals sound further away.

Its done with aux sends and either effects returns or busses. In Pro Tools I create an aux track and put the reverb insert on that track. Then I set the input of that track as bus 1&2 (stereo), for example. Then I can set up a volume and pan control for every channel that needs reverb and it becomes a "reverb knob". The volume of the aux channel with the reverb on it control the overall level of the reverb.

A mixer is used the same way- you just use hardware channels and knobs to do it.

So its like having 1 reverb on the whole mix, but you can control the level of each track going to it.

Last thing- go *easy* on the reverb. Less is usually more unless you're going for some dreamy, gothic effect. Its main purpose in a mix tends to be defining how FAR away from you a sound is. Some folks use it because it makes things sound better- but the more you turn up the reverb the farther a sound get from you. Harder to hear.

Long reverbs also fill the sonic space of a track FAST. With all that sound happening all over the place there is less room for the notes that are happening NOW to be heard. It might make an instrument sound great by itself, but it'll trash a mix faster than anything.

Take care,
Chris

[gcapel]

Originally Posted by legionserial

Sounds very similar to what happens if you've pulled the midrange down on the amp. Make sure the guitars start off with enough midrange. A lot of guitarists pull the mids down when they are playing on their own becuase it sounds good on its own, but the guitars need those mids to cut through the mix, as thats kinda the main area they sit in.

Killing the mids is one problem, but to mention another..is the presense knob. Do yourself a favor and turn it off and leave it off. If you still have problems, I would record the rythm tracks 2 or three times and use them all.

I don't know the type of direct injection your using, but usually if it isn't a high end box you can probably get a much better sound from a 57 or I5 on a speaker.

I really don't believe the whole statment that "my solo;d track sounds great, but shitty in the mix". I think you should rewind and try some other tracking methods.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by gcapel

I really don't believe the whole statment that "my solo;d track sounds great, but shitty in the mix". I think you should rewind and try some other tracking methods.

Not sure.
I wouldnt say the guitar soloed will sound great if it doesnt fit in the mix right. Even without any mixing the guitars should sound ok in the mix.

Eck

[Jouni]

I use VOX Tonelab too, mostly preset "carlos" without echoes and quite a little gain. someone has once complimented, my sounds....
They vary from mix to mix, and the settings are always the same on tonelab..

I eq the shit out of them guitars, main eq being:

(7-band)
60hz rolled off
plus4db in 150hz
minus 5Db at 400Hz
plus 4db at 1000hz
2400 flat
plus 5db at 6000hz
minus 10 at 15000hz

That's mostly for color...

at some point I end up usually killing everything under 400hz.(guitar)

then usually tend to drop something from 400hz from the readily-made mix to remove mud.

bassline eq also drops something from 400-1000hz, but I give a slight boost lower and at 2400hz and 6000hz..

read, memorize and print out:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sou...perman.html#EQ


"slipperman's recording distorted guitars from hell"
-good reading.

[K.P.]

abide by this rule... record the guitars brighter than you think...

The few times I mix with distorted guitars, I find myself doing a lot of tracking and very little EQ at the end.

Use the EQ on your amp (or POD or whatever, if it has one), and try to get all the settings right on that first (turn the gain down, etc.).

Keep retracking until it sounds good in the mix, and then apply a little EQ if you need to, to give the other instruments room. (I"ve retracked 20+ times before).

I find it's a lot better to spend the time tracking than applying invasive EQ cuts that you'll end up not liking the next time you listen to it. Or keep trying to EQ the guitars and never getting a sound that you're happy with.

Eventually, you'll learn how to get the right sound of the amp for the mix and it will save you a lot of time on future mixes.

That's just my 2¢

[TelePaul]

people hate what I say here, but I'm gonna add my one thing, and that is record with less distortion then you'd use for a 'live' distorted sound. That is all.

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by TelePaul

people hate what I say here, but I'm gonna add my one thing, and that is record with less distortion then you'd use for a 'live' distorted sound. That is all.

Yep..that helps keep some of the high end from sizzling...

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by danny.guitar

The few times I mix with distorted guitars, I find myself doing a lot of tracking and very little EQ at the end.

Use the EQ on your amp (or POD or whatever, if it has one), and try to get all the settings right on that first (turn the gain down, etc.).

Keep retracking until it sounds good in the mix, and then apply a little EQ if you need to, to give the other instruments room. (I"ve retracked 20+ times before).

I find it's a lot better to spend the time tracking than applying invasive EQ cuts that you'll end up not liking the next time you listen to it. Or keep trying to EQ the guitars and never getting a sound that you're happy with.

Eventually, you'll learn how to get the right sound of the amp for the mix and it will save you a lot of time on future mixes.

That's just my 2¢

Yep, if you get it right at the amp you'll need little to no eq in the final mix. Knowing how to track dirty guitars makes mixing them insanely easy.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Dogman

Yep..that helps keep some of the high end from sizzling...

Good advice.

Eck

[joswil44]

What if you already recorded guitars with too much distortion?

I have projects that sounded great being tracked, but when mixed with other guitars and pushed up in the mix turn nasty.

Anyway to fix those?

I found that some Q Filters tend to remove some sizzle.

Im just wondering if theres any good way to clean it up and still use it.

And another question....

When backing down on the gain I definately see the great results for rythm work, but how do you record keeping good gain for leads and harmonics?

Is it better to turn the gain down and throw in a Tube Screamer or Overdrive then to turn the gain back up to pull out some Zakk Wylde Pinch Harmonics or good lead saturation?

Thanks....

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by joswil44

When backing down on the gain I definately see the great results for rythm work, but how do you record keeping good gain for leads and harmonics?

Is it better to turn the gain down and throw in a Tube Screamer or Overdrive then to turn the gain back up to pull out some Zakk Wylde Pinch Harmonics or good lead saturation?

Thanks....

I have noticed that that hi end sizzle and any harsh mids (1-2K) seem to be greatley reduced when single notes are played on a heavily distorted guitar. I have recorded a song where 1 guitar does rythym then goes into single notes using the same guitar sound and mixing plug-ins. The single notes sound fekin awsome whereas the rythym sounds more grainy and sizzly.

Not sure what the reason for this is.
If anyone knows then please explain.

Eck

[K.P.]

Originally Posted by TelePaul

people hate what I say here, but I'm gonna add my one thing, and that is record with less distortion then you'd use for a 'live' distorted sound. That is all.

Please, someone explain this? Please...

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

I have noticed that that hi end sizzle and any harsh mids (1-2K) seem to be greatley reduced when single notes are played on a heavily distorted guitar. I have recorded a song where 1 guitar does rythym then goes into single notes using the same guitar sound and mixing plug-ins. The single notes sound fekin awsome whereas the rythym sounds more grainy and sizzly.

Not sure what the reason for this is.
If anyone knows then please explain.

Eck

I think the reason for the graininess, is a buildup of frequencies. Chords can span pretty big in the frequeny range. A really distorted guitar can have rumble way down low...say 100, and some ring way up hi...8-9k. I think it just buidls up, and can mask alot of other sounds.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by joswil44

Is it better to turn the gain down and throw in a Tube Screamer or Overdrive then to turn the gain back up to pull out some Zakk Wylde Pinch Harmonics or good lead saturation?

I get the best sound by playing through twin triple stacks of Volkswagons with the gain on the doors wide open.



Sorry, that one has been impatient waiting to get used...

G.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by K.P.

Please, someone explain this? Please...

Simple, people use more distortion then is really needed and tend to record their guitars that way too. I'm not a guitar player so I can't tell you scientifically what's going on but turning down the gain was one of the first lessons I learned and has made recording distorted guitars much easier.

[K.P.]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Simple, people use more distortion then is really needed and tend to record their guitars that way too. I'm not a guitar player so I can't tell you scientifically what's going on but turning down the gain was one of the first lessons I learned and has made recording distorted guitars much easier.

sorry, not convinced... anyone else...

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by K.P.

sorry, not convinced... anyone else...

Hmm not entirely sure, probably something to do with the fact that snare drum, vocals and acoustic/electric guitars occupy the same frequency range. In a mix, its harder to make things stand out...people tend to put their tone pot at 10 and gain at 10 and let rip. It's not the best way to do things IMO. Read Dogmans post, more distortion will build up the frequencies at 8/9 k. Hz.