Tone: Bolt-On vs. Set Neck

[Zaphod B]

Let's say I build myself a Warmoth, and spec it to be as close to a LP as possible - mahogany body, maple cap, mohogany neck, rosewood fingerboard, proper electronics, etc.

One big difference is the neck joint, where a kit guitar is bolt-on and the guitar I'd be trying to copy has a set neck.

How would the tone be affected by the difference in the neck joint?

[dave.....]

i have a univox les paul copy w/ a bolt on neck.......... the sustain is great

[32-20-Blues]

A good bolt on neck joint (that's one with a tight neck cavity route) is every bit as efficient as a set neck.

[metalhead28]

The general consensus seems to be that bolt ons typically have a little snappier response and more top end. I can't really substantiate that with personal experience, because I think that other differences in the guitars are what commonly lead to those kind of conclusions.
I'd say that if it is a nice tight joint, the difference in tone from a set neck would be negligible.

[Zaphod B]

Like Metalhead, I've also heard that bolt-ons lead to a "tighter" sound. But I'm not sure that I've ever seen any quantitative analysis.

My two guitars with bolt-ons are Fenders, and the LP is set neck, but there is no way to compare them - apples and oranges.

Has anyone noticed that building up a nice Warmoth can get really expensive?

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by Zaphod B

Has anyone noticed that building up a nice Warmoth can get really expensive?

absolutely! don't build a guitar to save money. build it b/c you want a project you can enjoy the results of. it's really easy to hit $1000 with a "parts guitar".

that said, i don't personally have a preference for one or the other--i've got a bolt-on in my tele and a set-neck in my ibanez hollowbody. i like em both.....can't really compare the two as they're totally different animals.


cheers,
wade

[Light]

Bolt-ons have a bit less sustain, but it is more the SHAPE of the sustain than the actual length of it. They will loose a lot of energy right at the begining of the note. More or less, they have a lot of attack, but a fairly quick decay.


If you want it to sound like a Les Paul, you need a set neck. On electric guitars, the style of neck joint makes a HUGE difference in the sound.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

... because I think that other differences in the guitars are what commonly lead to those kind of conclusions.

One of which I bet would be the body it's connected to. More so than how it's connected maybe?

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

absolutely! don't build a guitar to save money.

Ain't it the truth. A nicely done Warmoth neck will cost you over $300!

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by Light

Bolt-ons have a bit less sustain, but it is more the SHAPE of the sustain than the actual length of it. They will loose a lot of energy right at the begining of the note. More or less, they have a lot of attack, but a fairly quick decay.


If you want it to sound like a Les Paul, you need a set neck. On electric guitars, the style of neck joint makes a HUGE difference in the sound.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Thanks, Light.

[dave.....]

always trust light..... he seems to know the most of anyone here

[Jouni]

Ok, set vs bolt-on covered...

So, Im thinking that neck-through has even more sustain.

right so far?..


When I was young, someone quoted Gibson SG as "solid guitar"..
so, I thought it was made out of a solid block of wood, same chunk in body and neck...

BUT, now as I'm older I've been thinking that if I run into a guit-sized chunk of tonewood I just might do a "SOLID guitar" , A bitch to work with, or so I'd figure from what I've read. but...

But how about sustain and tone in that thing???...
Anyone seen one made, or heard or played?..

[mrface2112]

one thing to keep in mind is that if you ever run into a neck problem (warp, etc) that can't be fixed by adjusting the truss rod and requires that the neck have to come off (or heaven forbid be replaced).......a bolt on neck is FAR easier to replace/repair than a set neck guitar (which would have to be cut out, etc).

i just bring this up b/c my Ibeenhad Artcore hollowbody's neck (set neck) had a bad case of back bow recently. it was fixable via truss rod adjustment, but if it hadn't been fixable, i'd have been looking at a repair bill that would've been far more than the $200 i spent on the guitar. honestly, i think the problem was b/c the trussrod was cranked ALL THE WAY to one side (the "tight" side) and needed to be loosened--a minor crank and the neck practically popped right back into alignment. i bought the guitar used, so god only knows what the previous bozo had done with it, but it was obvious that *someone* had tightened it all the way.

anyway, IMO, a bolt-on neck guitar is a good bit easier to do major surgery on, if you ever have to do it.

and of course, no one would EVER leave their guitar in the car on a hot summer (or cold winter) day, would they?


cheers,
wade

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Light

Bolt-ons have a bit less sustain, but it is more the SHAPE of the sustain than the actual length of it. They will loose a lot of energy right at the begining of the note. More or less, they have a lot of attack, but a fairly quick decay.


If you want it to sound like a Les Paul, you need a set neck. On electric guitars, the style of neck joint makes a HUGE difference in the sound.

Can you show some data to support this? I don't mean to be confrontational, but I have seen a lot of dialogue (and diatribe) on this subject on several fora, and all the evidence I have seen so far has been anecdotal in nature. Some say it makes a huge difference and some say it doesn't, and proponents of both sides of the argument have claimed heavy credentials in terms of building and working on guitars and basses.

Personally, I have played many guitars of both types, but there have been so many other differences in materials and design between and among them that I cannot say for sure what diff that variable and that variable alone makes.

[Micter]

Ummm? Has anyone thought about scale length? 24 3/4" vs. 25 1/2". There lies a lot of the tonal differenced between most set necks and bolt on necks. The neck joint does play a part as well but I have to think the 25 1/2" scale will have tighter strings thus a brighter sound and the faster decay as light mentioned..

[Light]

Originally Posted by Jouni

BUT, now as I'm older I've been thinking that if I run into a guit-sized chunk of tonewood I just might do a "SOLID guitar" , A bitch to work with, or so I'd figure from what I've read. but...

Bad idea. The issue is not finding a piece of wood big enough, but finding a piece of wood which was big enough AND stable enough. They simply don't exist.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Light]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Can you show some data to support this?

No. But then, no one can show you ANY data reguarding guitars which has any validity. The number of variables on a guitar are just too high for it to be measureable. What I can say is that I've played a lot of guitars over the years, and I do keep track of my perceptions of those guitars. I've also built a lot of guitars over the years, and again I keep track of them. Neck through guitars tend to have the most sustain, but they usually have pretty lousy attack. Bolt on necks tend to have mediocre sustain, but they have great attack. Set necks seem to be right in the middle.

This stuff isn't science, and it isn't art. Anyone who says otherwise is either trying to fool you, or is fooling themselves. It's a craft (in the old sense of the word, not as in arts and crafts hobby bullshit). No one can say anything in the business with absolute certainty, but what I can say is that if I build a guitar looking for a certain sound, I can usually get pretty close to what I'm aiming for simply by following my experence.

That is the closest you are ever going to come to "data" in this business.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by Light

It's a craft (in the old sense of the word, not as in arts and crafts hobby bullshit).

I once made a guitar form pipe-cleaners and glitter glue. Sounded shit though.

[Zaphod B]

You could do an exhaustive quantitative analysis of it, but you'd spend a shitload of time and money on every permutation and combination of wood, joinery, finish, hardware, pickups, etc., etc., ......

I'd be glad to volunteer. I just need some of you wealthly guys to step up to the plate with a truckload of money.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Zaphod B

You could do an exhaustive quantitative analysis of it, but you'd spend a shitload of time and money on every permutation and combination of wood, joinery, finish, hardware, pickups, etc., etc., ......

I'd be glad to volunteer. I just need some of you wealthly guys to step up to the plate with a truckload of money.

And of course, with the variability of wood, you still wouldn't have any legitimate data.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by Light

And of course, with the variability of wood, you still wouldn't have any legitimate data.



Light

Shhhh! I'm looking for a sponsor over here, dammit!

[Zaphod B]

Originally Posted by Light

And of course, with the variability of wood, you still wouldn't have any legitimate data.



Light

To be serious, though, you could get pretty far towards a comprehensive data set as long as you understood the variables you would be working with.
With the wood, I can think of several factors that you could break out as factors that affect tone - specific gravity, grain direction and structure, the cut of wood, porosity, species, age, etc. Correct me if you think I'm blowing it out my ass.

Still, though, as you say, each piece of wood is unique so there is no way you'd ever be able to predict exactly how a build would sound.

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by Zaphod B

To be serious, though, you could get pretty far towards a comprehensive data set as long as you understood the variables you would be working with.
With the wood, I can think of several factors that you could break out as factors that affect tone - specific gravity, grain direction and structure, the cut of wood, porosity, species, age, etc. Correct me if you think I'm blowing it out my ass.

Still, though, as you say, each piece of wood is unique so there is no way you'd ever be able to predict exactly how a build would sound.

Don't forget your cumulative frequency and poisson distribution!!

[Mark7]

Poisson as in fish?

[TelePaul]

Originally Posted by Mark7

Poisson as in fish?

Yup think so. Ask Zaphod.