ten band graphic eq

[adiel]

does anybody know how to use a ten band stereo eq for mixdown?
saw this done once but can't remember exactly how. all bands where eithr - or = dbs and compression after i think.

[bigtoe]

put the eq in the chain and start monkeying.

i'm not so sure a graphic like that is the best choice. the Q on graphics are pretty distinct.

MIke

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Graphics are OK for gentle curve shaping on mixdowns, but a 10-band is a bit rough on the resolution. I wouldn't recommend anything short of a 2/3rd octave (15-band) - and preferably a 1/3rd octave (31-band) - for that purpose, but if a 10-band is all you got, it can be servicable.

I'd get the mix right first so that it compresses OK, then use *only if necesary* the graphic EQ just to gently shape the result. No big scoops or mountains in the graphic curve, just something to "fine sand" the final mix. Keep the curve centered around 0dB with a general balance of boosts and cuts on either side of zero.

If you find yourself having to do any major boosts or cuts (anything more than a few dB plus or minus per band) at that stage just to make it sound good, you might want to go back and try a re-mix..assuming you have the original mix tracks available.

G.

[mrT]

yes...





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[FALKEN]

a 10 band can be great but I would use it after the mix, not while you're mixing. they tend to have crappy headroom and you wouldn't want to screw up a mix because of that thing. get the mix good and apply it after. they really can work wonders if you use it right.

[adiel]

they where using it as a compensation pre-compression type of chain.
something to do with the fixed bands and not unity gain. or something.

[FALKEN]

I dont know what "they" were using it for but I've used it to remove frequency masking and it seems to work well.

[adiel]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

I dont know what "they" were using it for but I've used it to remove frequency masking and it seems to work well.

yes that is sort of what i'm talking about after the mixing for mix down. i know they sqashed the mix after raising each band i think,

[SouthSIDE Glen]

It sounds like they were using it as corrective EQ to remove the unwanted stuff that would otherwise be enhanced by the compression.

Personally, I prefer using parametric EQ for that purpose, because it allows for much more precise targeting of the frequencies to be cut. Plus a 10-band graphic is pretty coarse resolution to use for corrective EQ; there could easily be "probelm" frequencies that fall in between the wide cracks of a 10-band graphic. I'd use the parametric for the correective EQ, then compress (not squash, BTW), and then the graphic would follow after the compression just to "fine sand" the post-compression sound.

But there's more than one way to skin any cat.

G.

[FALKEN]

my massive passive probably doesn't have more than 10 points on it. but I haven't counted.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

my massive passive probably doesn't have more than 10 points on it. but I haven't counted.

And, frankly, if one needs more than 10 bands of parametric and/or tunable bandpass, one had probably better go back into the mix and get it right .

The difference is Adiel is talking about 10-band graphic, which is a whole other animal. Kinda hard to tame a harmonic at 180Hz without scooping out a boat load of warmth along with it if one only has fixed center points of 125 and 250Hz.

G.

[FALKEN]

ah. you're missing me. it doens't have 10 bands. It has 4 per channel. But the frequency points are fixed. Each band has maybe 6 and they overlap. many of the sought after vintage eq's have fixed frequency points.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I should have known better, I'm familiar enough with the Manley; I had tunnel vision. Apologies.

That said, though, the example (and it is just one example) about taming a harmonic that otherwise winds up getting emphasized during compression still applies. No matter how good it's "sound", IMHO the MMP would not the right tool for handling that kind of correction...unless the offending frequency just happens to fall within the box's preset parameters.

If we're talking corretcive, pre-compression EQ, IMHO, it's best to target the offending sounds as surgically as possible. If I want that Manley sound (and I happen to be in a studio that has one...I admire your ability to afford an EQ that costs as much as my entire outboard rack ), I can always use that during the tweak EQ after compression.

YMMV, and probably does. . Just making conversation.

G.

[FALKEN]

so what would you use?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

so what would you use?

For corrective pre-comp EQ I have been using Elemental Audio's Eqium more than anything else. A rather neutral sound, and about as flexible and surgical as one can get for that purpose, with 8 bands of fully-variable selectable parametric, -pass, -shelf, notch, and harmonic filtering. That of course assumes working in the digital domain, which I do that that point. If I'm in a studio with quality analog iron, I'll choose the "best" tunable parametric/bandpass/filters they have that will target the problem freqs.

I have worked with a MMP in the past; it's a great piece of gear! I'd love to have one myself for tinting my tracks and even my mixes with that great Manley sepia tone. But again, it's not going to be my tool of choice for targeted 2mix *correction* unless the problem just happens to fall within its available parameters.

Again, YMMV, IMHO, QUIDPROQUO, ETC.

G.

[adiel]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

For corrective pre-comp EQ I have been using Elemental Audio's Eqium more than anything else. A rather neutral sound, and about as flexible and surgical as one can get for that purpose, with 8 bands of fully-variable selectable parametric, -pass, -shelf, notch, and harmonic filtering. That of course assumes working in the digital domain, which I do that that point. If I'm in a studio with quality analog iron, I'll choose the "best" tunable parametric/bandpass/filters they have that will target the problem freqs.

I have worked with a MMP in the past; it's a great piece of gear! I'd love to have one myself for tinting my tracks and even my mixes with that great Manley sepia tone. But again, it's not going to be my tool of choice for targeted 2mix *correction* unless the problem just happens to fall within its available parameters.

Again, YMMV, IMHO, QUIDPROQUO, ETC.

G.

all i know is that the mix sounded thick and hot after compression.
but this me was working for kool and the gangs producer so it might be a style related type of mix. down in miami.

[xstatic]

Originally Posted by adiel

yes that is sort of what i'm talking about after the mixing for mix down. i know they sqashed the mix after raising each band i think,

This makes me wonder if the EQ wasn't just sidechained to the comp to help tune the compression itself and not for actual EQ'ing.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by xstatic

This makes me wonder if the EQ wasn't just sidechained to the comp to help tune the compression itself and not for actual EQ'ing.

Kind of synthing a 10-band MBC (in a rough kind of way, anyway)? Yeah, that's certainly a possibity.

Adiel, like I said earlier, theres many different ways of skinning the mastering cat. It not only depends upon genre like you said, but it depends on the actual tracking, the characteristics of the mix, and a whole bunch of other technical details that this board will never know as applied to the specific situation you witnessed.

If you're looking for a specific mastering recipe for using a 10-band EQ, that's like looking for a specific cooking recipe for using kosher salt. You use the EQ when and where your ears tell you it's needed, just like you use the salt when and where your mouth tells you it's needed.

As I re-read your posts, something like what xstatic describes for a signal chain may indeed be what you witnessed. But without further detailed information, we can only make guesses, because there is no one single definitive answer to "how to use a 10-band EQ for mixdown".

G.

[FALKEN]

ok I was totally wrong. I got home and looked at the massive and it has 34 different frequency points.

But I still stand by my statement that you can do a lot with a 10 band. its not the gear its how you use it and what your goals are.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

But I still stand by my statement that you can do a lot with a 10 band. its not the gear its how you use it and what your goals are.

And what if your goals are to correct problem frequencies in the mix before comping?

G.

[xstatic]

Actually, sidechaining an EQ to a comp does not really act like a multiband compressor. It's actually a really cool trick. Compressors all have their own individual frequency curves in which they respond to before compressing a signal. When you have the threshold set, that is a basic setting. The frequency curve that the comp responds to is based around that threshold, but is not always the same for all frequencies. At 80 hz the comp might trigger sooner than say at 2 khz. Maybe think of the Fletcher Munson curve as a loose not necessarily related graphic image. Sidechaining an EQ allows you to retune that curve as it were. If you sidechanin a graphic EQ and boost 2khz, the comp will respond to 2khz a little sooner than it would have prior. Conversely, by cutting alot of low frequencies you can greatly change a compressors reaction to low frequencies so it is more likely to start compressing when higher frequencies hit the set threshold. When sidechaining an EQ to a compressor the EQ boosts and cuts do not affect the audio path itself, so the signal is not EQ'ed, but just affects the compressors algorithm so to speak (at least pertaining to threshold and frequency). Kind of like Key filtering gates. This would allow you to "tune" your compressors reaction to various frequencies at various thresholds which can greatly affect how a compressor sounds and acts. It's one down and dirty way to really make something like an Alesis 3630 sound much better than it really is.

Some (or I guess even all) of this may or may not be correct, but this was how it was all explained to me years ago. I have used this trick on occasion and it definately changes how a compressor acts. It can be very hard to get used to, but sometimes it really does the trick well

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

a 10 band can be great but I would use it after the mix, not while you're mixing. they tend to have crappy headroom and you wouldn't want to screw up a mix because of that thing. get the mix good and apply it after. they really can work wonders if you use it right.

Crappy headroom? Dude.....just shut up please.

Fucking headroom.................I hate how people throw that word around and generally have NO idea what it means in audio circles!

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by xstatic

Actually, sidechaining an EQ to a comp does not really act like a multiband compressor.

Yeah, I meant that as a *very, very* rough analogy, only in that they both (in a general way) were a way of getting the compressor to react differently at different frequencies. Obviously the details of how they do that (and why one would want them to do that) are entirely different.

An interesting idea, though. I may have to play with it when I get an opportunity and hear what kind of effect(s) it has. Though I have to admit that I don't do a whole lot of sidechaining in general - that's not a judgement right or wrong on sidechaining, just the way the hand usualy plays for me - I'm intrigued by the idea you describe.

G.

Originally Posted by Ford Van

Crappy headroom? Dude.....just shut up please.

Fucking headroom.................I hate how people throw that word around and generally have NO idea what it means in audio circles!

Yea I was kind of wondering what he meant by headroom when applying the term to an EQ?

But then again I don't really know what everyone is talking about here so I figured I wouldn't say anything.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

Crappy headroom? Dude.....just shut up please.

Fucking headroom.................I hate how people throw that word around and generally have NO idea what it means in audio circles!

WHOA........what makes you think I don't know what it means?

I have a 15 band graphic and the thing clips at anything past 0db on the meter. Sometimes with everything set to unity the thing will clip with a hot track. The output has to be turned down from the get-go, and any eq'ing will definitely require that the output be turned down, or the thing clips like mad. ugly, nasty clipping. Even my massive does this on occasion, and it technically has headroom up do +28 db, which is pretty high. many of the more inexpensive boxes might only have headroom up to say +14 db...not very high at all for a typical mix. any sort of eq curve can have more drastic results than you intended or might even be hearing. its important to listen with focus that you are not adding any unwanted distortion through the output circuitry. Even cutting can make the resulting waveform louder than the original. When mixing there is so much going on and so much to pay attention to that it might be easy for a novice to miss something like this. I hate it when an otherwise perfect mix gets completely ruined due to a simple oversight that you don't notice until the next day. my suggestion was simply to leave the thing off until the mix was done. sheesh......