stage piano

[RandyW]

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to get a stage piano with 6-8 decent sounds for some where in the 1000 -1200 range?
I've been using an Allesis QS8 and can't bear it any longer for piano sounds anyway.

I don't care about midi or sequencing just something that sounds really nice. I visited the Korg site and heard some nice tritons but I don't need all the extra goodies.

[ssscientist]

There are many out there and most within your price range or a good deal cheaper.

Try Googling 'Stage Piano', because Google is your friend.

Also it wouldn't hurt to search this board for similar questions. This one qualifies as an FAQ.


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[Cazzbar]

For what it's worth, I've tried all the 88 key weighted stage pianos I can get my hands on recently and to my ears the Roland Fantom X8 has the best piano sounds, champagne clear I would say. For most keyboards, piano sounds tend to either be too dark and muddy (e.g Roland 700sx, bought and quicky returned) or too bright and thin. But the Fantom (to my ears) is perfectly balanced in the middle and crystal clear. But the X8 is a huge workstation and not practical for gigging, so I bought the Fantom XR rack unit. Unfortunately though I can't get the crystal sound using my Roland A90 controller. I've matched the XR settings to the X8 in the shop, and surprisingly the compression 'effect' employed on the X8 was vital to get close. Changing the velocity curve on the A90 has helped as well, but it's still not the sound I fell in love with! But that's my problem I guess...

So now I'm looking for a new weighted controller, Yamaha keyboards (P120, CP33) are too spongy for my liking and not enough finger room for my style of playing! (feels like I have to play with clenched fists) and I've enough Roland gear already, so I'm drawn to the Kawai MP4 ... nice action , good controller functions, not too heavy to carry and some surprisingly acceptable piano sounds... (did I need to buy that expensive Fantom sound module ) yet, it just looks a little plastic and naff to my eyes for a stage piano...


I've come to the conclusion there isn't the piano I want out there

[cortexx]

I was in the same dilemma as you.

I also realised that to have piano sounds like the X8 and have its amazing weighted keyboard I had to have the X8 so I bought it.

I tried every other weighted keyboard that was available in my area and they all pretty much sucked (especially korgs and M-audio).

the new X8 also has the multitrack recording software built in , better sampling and also got a free SRX board with it (analogue essentials), it turned out to be a great deal

BTW the Grand piano in the X8 is 4x sampled per key , thats what makes it so good , the high keys do not have the shrill sound that most stage pianos suffer from .

[Cazzbar]

I'm thinking I should have dived in with both feet and got the X8 now but it just looks a monster for transporting

Are you saying the X8 has a different piano sound to the XR by the way? I just assumed they were the same..............

[RandyW]

I'll have to find a kawai MP4 to demo. I've heard their acoustic grands and they sound nice. I don't want to spend 3K on a workstation they depreciate as fast as computers.

Thanks for the info. I was considering something along the lines of a CP120 but haven't played one yet. So they have a smaller scale keyboard or just not as deep. I find the keyboard of my Alessis comfortable it is just the crummy piano sound that annoys me

[cortexx]

Yes the X8 has a piano mode button where it loads the stage grand sound . when it does this you dont get to play with any other parameters because the keyboards DSP power is almost completely used up processing the multitude of individual samples for the 88 keys. As far as i know you don't get this feature on the rack, it's one of the reasons the X8 costs so much more. Also the rack does not have the audio expansion pack that gives it it's multitracking and recording features which are actually really useful.

The keyboard is not really that heavy , i carry it by myself.

[antispatula]

I just got a prokeys 88sx for 300 bucks, but I'm guessing you're willing to spend way more than that? You can try a Nord Electro, I just tried one out ysterday. Semi weighted keys, but the sounds are good, and the Rhodes sounds are INCREADIBLE! I've never heard a keyboard with better Rhodes sounds.

[Cazzbar]

Thanks cortexx, that's given me loads of food for thought. I'm not too bothered about the recording side of things as I've a 24 tracker already, and I've never had the need for a sampler. I only wanted the XR for the piano sound, and if it can't reach the heights of the X8 then I'm starting to question my purchase. (I've already exchanged the RD700sx for the XR, a transaction which didn't go too smothly! they're gonna love me in the shop if I go back )

[cortexx]

Originally Posted by Cazzbar

Thanks cortexx, that's given me loads of food for thought. I'm not too bothered about the recording side of things as I've a 24 tracker already, and I've never had the need for a sampler. I only wanted the XR for the piano sound, and if it can't reach the heights of the X8 then I'm starting to question my purchase. (I've already exchanged the RD700sx for the XR, a transaction which didn't go too smothly! they're gonna love me in the shop if I go back )

Cool you live in Bristol , I used to live in Exeter before I emmigrated to Canada.

[RandyW]

Originally Posted by antispatula

I just got a prokeys 88sx for 300 bucks, but I'm guessing you're willing to spend way more than that? You can try a Nord Electro, I just tried one out ysterday. Semi weighted keys, but the sounds are good, and the Rhodes sounds are INCREADIBLE! I've never heard a keyboard with better Rhodes sounds.

So how do you like the sx?
You got to love having something so light to haul around.
I ran across another Korg model an SP250 I believe was the model.
It has a unique feature for a lower price unit damper that will function
half way instead of full on. The piano sounds seem decent compared to
what I have now but the strings don't sound that good.

Does any one know if Wurlltzer electric pianos are worth anything these days? I have one still that is in perfect tune in storage around here somewhere. I should but it up on ebay if it is worth anything.

[Cazzbar]

Originally Posted by cortexx

Cool you live in Bristol , I used to live in Exeter before I emmigrated to Canada.

i know the service station well lol

might follow you what with house prices over here! (160,000 for a mid-terraced ex-council house and they're still rising... ok, slightly off topic!)

[RandyW]

I was just checking what wurlitzer electrics were going for looks like 600 to 1200 smackers. If I find a buyer for it I could spend 2K on a SP.
On second thought I guess I should take it back down to the studio and see why people want them so bad.
I've had a couple of them the one I put it storage was in perfect tune. The first one I traded for had worn reeds it looked like someone had played chop sticks on middle C for 20years

[erichenryus]

I think everyone must have their own taste on how a weighted controller should feel. I tried the m-audio controllers and I hated them. I've actually been trying out every controller I could get my hands on for like the last three months. I've visited every shop around me and tried them all. And you know which one I like the best? Of course the x8 was immediately a pleasure to play but then I played a casio CDP100! It's only 400 bucks and it felt fantastic to me. So I'm going to marry one of those with a fantom xr but the comments here about the difference between the x8 sound and the xr sound is concerning. Could it be the speakers you played the x8 back through in the shop were just nicer than what you're playing the xr back through?

[Cazzbar]

Originally Posted by erichenryus

Could it be the speakers you played the x8 back through in the shop were just nicer than what you're playing the xr back through?

The speakers in the shop were a pair of Roland monitors (didn't catch the model), and I've a pair of similarly sized active Fostex PM1 monitors at home... for the sake of the comparision I would say it's pretty even.

What's missing for me is the 'gloss' finish the X8 has. And in the shop the notes stay clear and 'above water' all the way down the keyboard, whereas on the XR I feel the notes start sounding a little muffled and below water as you travel down below middle C (a real pet hate for me, the Rd700sx had this muffled sound on every key other than the last octave I think!) Changing from a flat to a steeper climb velocity curve on my controller really helps (not so much if you change the curve on the XR) but I feel the higher notes have too much velocity then. So maybe if I found the right controller I will be happier. But yeah I feel the 'cool gloss' finish is missing, although there's still loads of ways of routing the effects so I may be missing something. But saying that it's still the best piano sound around for me excluding the X8 I think)

And I've also thought of linking the XR to the Casio (and either people will say that's the best sounding Casio they've ever heard or see Casio and convince themselves it sounds rubbish no matter what )

[erichenryus]

Originally Posted by Cazzbar

And I've also thought of linking the XR to the Casio (and either people will say that's the best sounding Casio they've ever heard or see Casio and convince themselves it sounds rubbish no matter what )

You know what? That's been the biggest thing that's been stopping me from the purchase is the name Casio. But the whole casio + XR combo cost me 1250. That's more than a grand less than the x8 and if someone spills beer on my keyboard at a gig, not a problem. I just go buy another one.

[erichenryus]

The mastering compressor will quickly turn the bass regions of that piano into mud. I think the standard piano patch sounds best with only a little bit of reverb but definitely turn off that nasty compressor. yuck! It has it's place for certain things but certainly doesn't have it's place with a naturally dynamic instrument like a piano.

The piano patch sounds to me like they sampled a pretty 'bell' like piano. Maybe a Yamaha or something that really sings in the upper registers. It's very nice and satisfies me. I usually prefer a darker more controlled sound of like an older Steinway but this one is pretty nice right out of the box.

Anyway, have you tried pulling the compressor from the effects chain? Also make sure you have enough predelay on the reverb to keep it out of smearing the attack of the notes?

[cortexx]

Originally Posted by Cazzbar

i know the service station well lol

might follow you what with house prices over here! (160,000 for a mid-terraced ex-council house and they're still rising... ok, slightly off topic!)

Oh yes Granada services , used to take my girl friends there when i was a broke teen for Hot Chocolate , it worked everytime

Thats one of the main reasons I left the UK , I had a house but it was 25% in negative equity in the mid nghties , the job market was bleak , every job , even minimum wage jobs had 300-400 applicants , the price of clothes and food was sky rocketing even back then. I did alot of research and decided to move to Canada/North America to get ahead in life. Canada won because we get snow , 1/2 decent healthcare system and are less likely to get bombed by the Middle East ( in my opinion anyways ).

2 years here and I managed to get further in life than i did in 14 years in England, too bad really because I would still rather live where i grew up , I used to surf alot which i can't do here and of course i miss my family. I found it a bit of a culture shock moving here , every corner has a drive through burger joint and sadley one of the first things that noticed when i landed here was the level of obesity , it's even worse in the states . People in Canada are very friendly as a general rule, hot women ohh and the coffee and bacon is worth coming here for alone

If you say "ehhh" after everything you'll fit in fine

[RandyW]

I checked out the Kawai but didn't like the way it sounded. The keyboard was nice and it looked well built but didn't sound much better than my QS8 pianos to me anyways.

I decided to go with a Korg SP-250 instead. Had to order it online with out trying it out so I let you know how it goes when it arrives.

[Cazzbar]

Originally Posted by erichenryus

The mastering compressor will quickly turn the bass regions of that piano into mud. I think the standard piano patch sounds best with only a little bit of reverb but definitely turn off that nasty compressor. yuck! It has it's place for certain things but certainly doesn't have it's place with a naturally dynamic instrument like a piano.

Anyway, have you tried pulling the compressor from the effects chain? Also make sure you have enough predelay on the reverb to keep it out of smearing the attack of the notes?

Top tips erichenryus. In the shop the X8 has a compression MFX switched on as well as the mastering compressor and these have the most noticable effect on the sound, so in my desperation to get my XR sounding the same I blindly copied all the settings... without thinking of the effect on the sound. Switching these off and simply turning up the output to compensate for the loss of gain has made things clearer, along with the verb predelay which makes perfect sense.

I was playing last night and *almost* forget about my nagging doubts! Think I just need to trigger about a 10% velocity gain in the lower registers of my controller to bring out that bit of clarity as the quieter samples tend to be less clear (is this possible?!)... as changing the velocity curves is just too drastic an adjustment.

It looks like we're chasing perfection though as the X8 appears to just have that extra level which you cannot emulate...appears to be the price for portability in this case though *sad face*

(edit: although just been to the shop (again) and the difference now is very small, for some reason i noticed the bass muffling problems in the x8 more... so left feeling quite happy )

[Cazzbar]

Originally Posted by cortexx

Oh yes Granada services , used to take my girl friends there when i was a broke teen for Hot Chocolate , it worked everytime

Thats one of the main reasons I left the UK , I had a house but it was 25% in negative equity in the mid nghties , the job market was bleak , every job , even minimum wage jobs had 300-400 applicants , the price of clothes and food was sky rocketing even back then. I did alot of research and decided to move to Canada/North America to get ahead in life. Canada won because we get snow , 1/2 decent healthcare system and are less likely to get bombed by the Middle East ( in my opinion anyways ).

2 years here and I managed to get further in life than i did in 14 years in England, too bad really because I would still rather live where i grew up , I used to surf alot which i can't do here and of course i miss my family. I found it a bit of a culture shock moving here , every corner has a drive through burger joint and sadley one of the first things that noticed when i landed here was the level of obesity , it's even worse in the states . People in Canada are very friendly as a general rule, hot women ohh and the coffee and bacon is worth coming here for alone

If you say "ehhh" after everything you'll fit in fine

I read everything you said with interest cortexx, I never thought I would consider leaving this country but I feel desperately let down by the housing prices, it's just not right. Doubt if I'll ever have the guts to leave but if you know a few guys who want to start up a band, might be all it takes lol (oh and the hot women, coffee and bacon! and at my age i'm still considering the order )

[cortexx]

Originally Posted by Cazzbar

I read everything you said with interest cortexx, I never thought I would consider leaving this country but I feel desperately let down by the housing prices, it's just not right. Doubt if I'll ever have the guts to leave but if you know a few guys who want to start up a band, might be all it takes lol (oh and the hot women, coffee and bacon! and at my age i'm still considering the order )

Haha yes the housing prices are retarded , one of my biggest gripes. There are a ton of bands here locally ,i get bugged all the time to play keyboards because there are hardly any keyboard players around. Most want to play guitar , drums base etc , not many people seem to want to invest the time it takes to play a keyboard. I don't play in a band , i play in solitary confinement in my studio I dont think I would be able to go on stage and perform , i'm pretty shy .

Actually I live in Brantford near hamilton , not too many hot women here it's pretty redneck , most of the women are hairyer than their husbands and are openmouth breathers. Toronto are where the prime time ladies live , there is a ratio of 4 women to each guy there apparently

Of course im married etc ( found the only hot women in Brantford 10 years agon ) .. so my personal order is coffee , bacon and turning my nose up at the local trolls

[Cazzbar]

I was a bedroom performer as well, so to speak, for 15 years... then 4 years ago my friend invited me along to his band practice and I've been hooked ever since. I'm still shy though, hardly ever look anybody in the eye whilst playing (which isn't good for stage presence!) The nerves about an hour before you play are terrible, adrenaline gets you through the performance, and the best bit is when you've finished! Hopefully get a few handshakes, have a beer and think... ****, we survived! (honestly you need to try it!!)

[lumbago]

Roland XV-5050 or XV-2020 with SRX-02 card in it. Drive with any 88 key midi keyboard (M-Audio ??)

Set up Grand on SRX_02 with a hint of A-002 bright piano (volume=80/127)

If you try a SRX-11 card you'll probably be happier again.

You'll be playing this for hours.

[RandyW]

Got the SP-250 Wednesday. I was suprised how heavy the box was when I dragged it in from the deck.

Any way it's a good 10lbs lighter than the QS8. It sounds very very close to an acoustic piano. I like the layered sounds too especially pianos and strings.
The built in amp is fairly loud plenty for personal use but really needs an external amp for any thing louder than an acoustic instrument. Not enough volume to play with drums though. The action is pretty good but the keys feel like they are made from some really cheap slippery plastic. Not as nice as and the Yamaha CP33 but the sound sames are equal to it.

I think it is a keeper. But then again I don't to much about keyboards.