Whizzer speaker stage monitor

[travelin travis]

I've been playing with a band in small to medium clubs. Currently we don't have any stage monitors. One of the guys in the band recently purchased a p.a. system with no regard toward stage monitoring. The p.a. rig consists of 2 15"/tweeter cabs, 2 18" sub cabs, a couple of power amps, a dual 31 band eq, and a 24 channel mixer. I put in a vote for monitors and no subs but I'm just a guitar player; what the hell do I know?

Anyway, it's been a bitch playing without monitors. I can't hear the vocals, the drums are usually a couple of feet behind me (loud cymbals), and I have to trot around within my limited stage space to hear a good balance between my amp and the other guitarists amp during different parts of songs. The drummer says he has issues too. I'm not sure why but the bass player/singer and guitarist seem to be able to hear everything fine. They are left/right on the stage while me and the drummer are center stage.

I don't have much money to throw down for monitors so I've been looking into some cheap diy solutions. Currently I have a 200w per channel power amp that I use for my nearfields and I could take it to gigs to power the stage monitors. I was thinking of building some mini monitors to place on mic stands using whizzer speakers in a small enclosure. THESE are what I'm looking into using. I figure that I could just put some small pole mounts on the bottom of the enclosures and mount them on mic stands. I would be feeding the power amp with sends from the mixer.

The band is a fairly loud rock band and I'm not sure these mini monitors would provide the volume. I'm thinking that if they're placed on mic stands (closer to the listener) that they should suffice. Maybe they would be fine on the floor? Does anyone here have experience with whizzer speakers? Are there any characteristics of whizzer speakers that I should know about before trying to incorporate them into stage monitors? These things would be super cheap to build (probably $100 a pair) and easy to transport. Any suggestions, words of wisdom, or would you care to just poke fun at me?

[travelin travis]

I'm also considering this WHIZZER or this WHIZZER .

I'm also wondering how enclosure size affects mid/hi frequency response. I could care less about bass response for these mini monitors.

[SRR]

Totally off from what you are asking to do, but I would so trust one of these options first:

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/240068.html
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/246364.html
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/246459.html

or cough even these would blow those other speakers away that you listed in power handling and shear output, they will probably even last longer then what you have planned:

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/256803.html
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/246004.html

But really the Community, Yamaha, and JBL options are built to last, sound good when cranked that is assuming your amp is up to it..., and will cut through stage volume better.

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by SRR

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/246004.html

This is completely unrelated but...........after looking for user opinions on that Pyle monitor, I came across a thread at diyaudio about dipole subwoofers. I'm blown away by reading the thread and I have'nt even had the chance to try it. The original poster claims that it is the best sounding sub he has ever heard. Also, the bass produced by this sub is claimed as being very directional, which I'm sure would be welcomed in a mixing room.

In a nutshell, two very inexpensive ($38 per driver) Pyle woofers were used in a dipole configuration on an open baffle (no real enclosure) to build a sub that produces clean bass, sounds very open/natural, has deep extension, is very directional, and reaches high spl's. It got me pretty excited. Here's the thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=1

Beware. The thread is 41 pages long.

I'm now even more curious about speaker design/building in general.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

I'm also wondering how enclosure size affects mid/hi frequency response. I could care less about bass response for these mini monitors.

It doesn't to any practical extent.

[travelin travis]

Would it be safe to say that I could slap a whizzer speaker in a small enclosure and run with it?..........being that I have no concern for bass. As long as these things are'nt ice picking any ears, they should serve a utilitarian purpose. From what I understand, the enclosure is a simple way to prevent phase cancellation.

Off subject again..........this free air dipole thing over at diyaudio has me all excited. Mshilarious have you ever experimented with open baffle speakers? I'm really liking the things I'm reading over there. Here's another thread about dipole speakers: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=1

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

Off subject again..........this free air dipole thing over at diyaudio has me all excited. Mshilarious have you ever experimented with open baffle speakers? I'm really liking the things I'm reading over there. Here's another thread about dipole speakers: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=1

I don't have time for a 41 page thread at the moment . . . but if the idea is to make a sufficiently large baffle, yes that would eliminate the need for an enclosure. I'm not sure what that has to do with your monitor issue.

The only problem I can see with the little drivers is their power handling. If you stick them in a little enclosure, they will have poor bass response, but they will still be driven by the bass signal. Therefore I would include an active high pass filter before your power amp, set somewhere around 200Hz. I personally don't feel those frequencies are necessary in monitors anyway, but the proliferation of 15" wedges shows that not many people agree with me.

Anyway, by high-passing the monitor signal, you will save lots of headroom in both your power amp and monitors, and perhaps prolong the speakers' lives.

[travelin travis]

I suppose what I have to figure out now is the spl that I will need to hear vocals and second guitar adequately on stage and then determine wether the little whizzer speaker will handle that level. Thanks for the info mshilarious. I was thinking that I should use a high pass and 200 hz sounds like a good place to start.

Seeing that those pioneer whizzers are rated at 60 watts, and that my amp won't be starving for power even at the speaker's max power handling, I'm thinking that passive filters should be ok. I really know very little about this subject and may be overlooking something here.

My sidetracking to the dipole thing does'nt have anything to do with my monitoring needs. I ran across the dipole thing while looking for reviews on drivers. I just got all excited when I read that deep, clean, non-resonant lows could be acheived at a low cost. It looks like something to look into for mixing room monitoring.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

Seeing that those pioneer whizzers are rated at 60 watts, and that my amp won't be starving for power even at the speaker's max power handling, I'm thinking that passive filters should be ok. I really know very little about this subject and may be overlooking something here.

One thing you are overlooking is the size of the caps and inductors you would need for a passive filter that low. Of course if you just wanted a 6dB filter, a 100uF electro would do the job . . . but I think you'll be happier with an active filter.

See if you can score a used Rane MX22, that would be perfect for this sort of job, and has uses for mains if you upgrade to larger monitors.

[travelin travis]

Thanks for the info man. I knew I was probably overlooking something. We do have an extra mixer that might be useful for some filtering. I think I'll put the speakers together and try them out at practice and go from there. Thanks for the tip on the Rane too.

[Farview]

You will run into more feedback problems if you have your monitors up in the air. (assuming a relatively small space) I predict that you will end up shooting the voice coil across the room inside of two practices. 60 watts into an 8 inch speaker is going to be woefully inadequate for a rock situation.

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by Farview

You will run into more feedback problems if you have your monitors up in the air. (assuming a relatively small space) I predict that you will end up shooting the voice coil across the room inside of two practices. 60 watts into an 8 inch speaker is going to be woefully inadequate for a rock situation.

Why would a monitor be more prone to feedback in the air? Assuming that it's not being placed near (directly behind or in front of) mics. How will speaker size limit performance? That Pioneer whizzer is rated at 90db sensitivity 1mWatt. I used this CALCULATOR to see the spl that would be ahieved by this speaker at a distance of 5 feet (monitor on the floor) and 40 watts power. It came out to 102 db. 102 db is pretty loud. Enlighten me Farview.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

WIt came out to 102 db. 102 db is pretty loud. Enlighten me Farview.

Has to do with dispersion of high frequencies. A horn is designed to spread 'em out wide. A little whizzer cone speaker, much less so. Therefore, if you move your head too much, you'll lose the high frequencies. Not a big deal for the drummer, they don't move and just need basic cues. But the singers usually like to hear what they are singing.

To compensate, you'll have to turn up the monitor.

Regarding sensitivity, a horn can be 100dB/1W or more. That is orders of magnitude higher.

Having said all that, little hotspot monitors are used by some, and if you are building them, it's very cheap to try. Probably not much to lose.

Although I had thought you were looking at the 5" driver . . . 8" is getting kinda big for stand-mounted

[travelin travis]

If I was to go with a stand mounted monitor, I would use the smaller speaker. I don't like the idea of 10 pounds or so balancing directly in front of me on a mic stand. I might end up with a broken toe or something worse. A horn enclosure for the 8" speaker might be something to look into. My wood working skills are'nt exactly spectacular though.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

If I was to go with a stand mounted monitor, I would use the smaller speaker. I don't like the idea of 10 pounds or so balancing directly in front of me on a mic stand. I might end up with a broken toe or something worse. A horn enclosure for the 8" speaker might be something to look into. My wood working skills are'nt exactly spectacular though.

Horn-loaded woofers are for enhancing bass response. I was talking about compression horn tweeters.

If you want to build floor-mounted wedges, try this:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=290-408

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=290-534

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-146

And wire it for Speakon connectors. Spring for the Deltas instead of the Betas if you can swing it. For $150 + wood, those will be very good wedges.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

Why would a monitor be more prone to feedback in the air?

Assuming you need to be loud, having the speaker up around head level will turn your head into a reflective surface. As you move around, you could cause feedback that way.

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

How will speaker size limit performance?

It's all about coverage. A little speaker will be too directional.[QUOTE=TravisinFlorida] That Pioneer whizzer is rated at 90db sensitivity 1mWatt. That's nothing compared to a rock band.

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

It came out to 102 db. 102 db is pretty loud. Enlighten me Farview.

It is still too narrow of a dispersion to do you any good. A boom box can reac 110db right in front of it, but it won't do you much good in a stadium.

[travelin travis]

Mshilarious, that stuff looks like the makings of a solid monitor. I could afford to make one for myself and let the drummer fiend for himself. On the other hand, I'm usually pretty close to the drummer. Depending on the angle of the cabinet, that might provide coverage for us both.

I'm wondering about the sensitivity rating of speakers. Is the sensitivity for a given frequency? Or the entire usable frequency range of the speaker? In other words, what type of sound is sent thru a speaker to determine an SPL of 98 db @ 1 watt @ 1 meter?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

Is the sensitivity for a given frequency? Or the entire usable frequency range of the speaker? In other words, what type of sound is sent thru a speaker to determine an SPL of 98 db @ 1 watt @ 1 meter?

My knee-jerk reaction was "1kHz". But of course tweeters wouldn't be tested there, so I don't know. However, yes it should apply to the rated spectrum, +/- a margin of error.

Music is not flat-response though. You need much higher SPLs (and therefore more watts) for bass than highs. This is why you see mains with multiple woofers, and biamped cabs, etc. Otherwise, the horn tweeters in a single-woofer cab will probably need to be padded.

Oh, also those prices you see are list, the real prices are $10 or so less for each of the Eminence components. They also make a smaller horn for that compression driver, which I used in my wedges--smaller dispersion angle, but I was retrofitting existing cabs. That could save a few bucks too. Finally, you can save the money on the crossover if you build it yourself, if you make it 6dB/octave, you only need 1 inductor and 1 cap, and you can use an electro cap which is much cheaper than the poly films in the Dayton crossover. Even if you keep it at 12dB/octave, you can still save dough with electros. These aren't exactly gonna be used for critical mixing tasks . . .

[travelin travis]

Farview, why is a wide dispersion needed in a monitor? I usually try not to stray far from my beer so that I can take advantage of any breaks during a song. The only reason I move around the stage at all is to try and hear more of the other guitarist or singer. If I had a monitor, I would have no reason to move around. Keep in mind that we're typically in small to medium clubs with small stages.

Are you saying that 102 db is no good without a certain amount of dispersion? A small speaker will likely beam upper frequencies in a narrow path? Would'nt that help in preventing feedback?

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

I'm wondering about the sensitivity rating of speakers. Is the sensitivity for a given frequency? Or the entire usable frequency range of the speaker? In other words, what type of sound is sent thru a speaker to determine an SPL of 98 db @ 1 watt @ 1 meter?

Usually it's a 1k signal.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

Farview, why is a wide dispersion needed in a monitor? I usually try not to stray far from my beer so that I can take advantage of any breaks during a song. The only reason I move around the stage at all is to try and hear more of the other guitarist or singer. If I had a monitor, I would have no reason to move around. Keep in mind that we're typically in small to medium clubs with small stages.

See, that's where maybe a 5" jobbie might work for you, especially if you don't have an open mic. If it's only $10 for the driver . . . give it a shot, and let the singer cough up the bucks for a real monitor. I don't see the point of the 8" though, for that much woodworking I'd just step up to the real thing. Heck, in the bad old days, I've used crap 10" guitar amps as sidefills

Ah, I remember my first band's PA . . . the guitarist's parents sprung for the PA, it was two 2x12 cabs and a 6 channel powered mixer. Eventually we figured out we needed monitors, because the singer was the drummer so we got these self-powered things that must have been 3" drivers or something. The guitarist used a 2x12 Fender amp and I had a biamped Peavey 15" and 2x12" rig. The drummer played with the freakin' John Bonham tree trunks, turned around of course.

I'm pretty sure nobody ever heard the vocals

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by Farview

Usually it's a 1k signal.

That would have been my guess too.......like mshilarious said, knee jerk reaction. But tweeters are usually crossed over well above 1k. I'm lost on this one. Where's Harvey?

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

See, that's where maybe a 5" jobbie might work for you, especially if you don't have an open mic. If it's only $10 for the driver . . . give it a shot, and let the singer cough up the bucks for a real monitor. I don't see the point of the 8" though, for that much woodworking I'd just step up to the real thing. Heck, in the bad old days, I've used crap 10" guitar amps as sidefills

Ah, I remember my first band's PA . . . the guitarist's parents sprung for the PA, it was two 2x12 cabs and a 6 channel powered mixer. Eventually we figured out we needed monitors, because the singer was the drummer so we got these self-powered things that must have been 3" drivers or something. The guitarist used a 2x12 Fender amp and I had a biamped Peavey 15" and 2x12" rig. The drummer played with the freakin' John Bonham tree trunks, turned around of course.

I'm pretty sure nobody ever heard the vocals

Sounds like fun to me.

When you say that no one ever heard the vocals, do you mean the band, the audience, or both?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by TravisinFlorida

When you say that no one ever heard the vocals, do you mean the band, the audience, or both?

The band, the singer, the audience, probably even the microphone

[MadAudio]

I'm guessing an in-ear monitor is not an option for you.