nylon d string breaks

[cannabis]

something i've noticed over the years

with three different guitars

a 40 year old flamenco from spain

a 30 year old aria flamenco from japan

an "old" crap classical from mexico



it's always the d string that breaks

i go to play

and the guitar is sitting there

with a d string broken

between the nut and the tuner



i don't think all three guitars

have a tight nut "d" groove

(and i've widened them)

or that my house has a "d" gremlin

(i've moved several times)


is this a common problem

like d's are at the limit of their tension when tuned



or is it just me?

[scrubs]

I don't recall ever breaking a D string on the few nylon-string guitars I've had over the years.

[XLR]

On all my classical guitars the D string is always the most likely to break. Also the one that loses brightness the fastest - so needs replacing the most often. Shouldn't break very often if you change it when it gets dull in tone.

IME they most commonly break at the saddle. If they're breaking at the nut use a little graphite in the slot.

Tim

[cannabis]

thanks - i'll try the graphite

i'm tired of tying the string together

and having it break again

[rpe]

In a period of about 5 years, the D string on my Alvarez nylon, acoustic-electric has broken 3 or 4 times at the saddle. No other stings have broken and none of my other (steel string) guitars have ever done that. This is very strange. Would like to hear more about this.

rpe

[XLR]

Saddles that are relatively high in relation to the tie block of the bridge put lots of pressure on the string at the point of saddle contact.

You can minimize breakage by making sure that the top edges of the saddle aren't sharp, as it'll cut the string eventually.

Tim

[Tadpui]

Even stranger, my nylon string hangs on the wall and the D string on it mysteriously breaks at about the 14th fret while its just hanging there. I'll go in one day and see that its broken. Only the D string, and only on that guitar (3 other guitars hanging right alongside it).

I play electric guitar in that same room, and there are some serious standing waves when I play loud. I can only assume that the string drones sypmpathetically with the vibrations caused by my amp in my acoustically imbalanced room, and as the string weakens it just finally goes. Also on this guitar, when left alone, some strings tend to go sharp instead of flat like most guitars. Go figure. That thing has a mind of its own apparently.

But its always the D string for me too.

[XLR]

When you buy strings, buy one or two extra D strings for each full set you get. I buy bunches of them. Strings by Mail has a good assortment of individual high quality nylon strings. Change the D string after every 10 hours or so of playing, the other bass strings after 40 hours playing, the treble strings just when they get rough or the intonation becomes false. Your guitar will sound better balanced, brightness-wise, and you'll almost never have a D string break.

Tim

[dgatwood]

Originally Posted by cannabis

like d's are at the limit of their tension when tuned
or is it just me?

Not necessarily tight. It might just be that it has a sharp edge. You might try rounding the front and back edges of the groove. Or it might have something to do with how it is strung. Any chance the strings are getting bent at a sharper angle between the tuner and the nut?

(Oh, crap. I just noticed that when I restrung my electric, I hooked the G string under the B brace!)

[XLR]

You might try rounding the front and back edges of the groove.

Easy does it though. The edge of the nut groove where the string starts vibrating needs to be a very clean edge. If it feels sharp to the touch when you draw a fingernail across it, hit it with a few strokes of 600 sandpaper, but don't file it to be rounded... it'll affect the intonation and clarity of sound.

Tim

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Not necessarily tight. It might just be that it has a sharp edge. You might try rounding the front and back edges of the groove. Or it might have something to do with how it is strung. Any chance the strings are getting bent at a sharper angle between the tuner and the nut?

(Oh, crap. I just noticed that when I restrung my electric, I hooked the G string under the B brace!)

they don't break at the nut

it's between the nut and the tuner

like the nut is grabbing the string

an putting more tension behind it

but there's no popping sound as it is tuned

nor any gradual drift to the pitch after tuning



and now that i think of it

they've occasionally broken in other places too -

mid string and at the saddle



but it's three different guitars

and only the d

i can't ever remember another string breaking

classical guitars are just badly engineered, i guess

[XLR]

cannabis, how often do you change your strings?

Tim

[Light]

On a nylon string guitar, the D string has the smallest core. Particularly with nylon strings, where the core is not a solid core, but a bunch of nylon strands spun together and then wraped over, the smallest core string is always going to break the most. Most acoustic players break more G strings, and most electric players break more D strings. The windings do not add to the strength of the string (at least, not much), just the mass. It is the size of the core which determines the strings strength.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Light

On a nylon string guitar, the D string has the smallest core. Particularly with nylon strings, where the core is not a solid core, but a bunch of nylon strands spun together and then wraped over, the smallest core string is always going to break the most. Most acoustic players break more G strings, and most electric players break more D strings. The windings do not add to the strength of the string (at least, not much), just the mass. It is the size of the core which determines the strings strength.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

this would make sense

and i guess the reason they don't make the core larger

(and the winding gauge lighter)

is that it would unacceptably change the tonal charactersitics

of the string in relation to the others?

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

cannabis, how often do you change your strings?

Tim

uhh...

when the d string breaks?



i really don't change them often enough

but this last d went

after only a week or so

on the guitar

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

When you buy strings, buy one or two extra D strings for each full set you get. I buy bunches of them. Strings by Mail has a good assortment of individual high quality nylon strings. Change the D string after every 10 hours or so of playing, the other bass strings after 40 hours playing, the treble strings just when they get rough or the intonation becomes false. Your guitar will sound better balanced, brightness-wise, and you'll almost never have a D string break.

Tim

tim

thanks for the strings by mail info

http://www.stringsbymail.com/


i got their pack of

bulk martin 120's ($95 for 48 sets)

http://www.stringsbymail.com/sublist...ssical+Strings

and that should be enough

to last me the rest of my life

even stealing some extra d's from them

[LI_Slim]

you're obviously playing that string too much. pay more attention to the A and G.

[32-20-Blues]

Originally Posted by cannabis

something i've noticed over the years

with three different guitars

a 40 year old flamenco from spain

a 30 year old aria flamenco from japan

an "old" crap classical from mexico

Admittedly unrelated, but have you ever had to have a neck reset or re-plane on any of those guitars?

I have a la Patrie presentation (with a truss rod), and I was wondering if older classicals without this reinforcement will eventually need attention?

Cheers.

[Light]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Admittedly unrelated, but have you ever had to have a neck reset or re-plane on any of those guitars?

I have a la Patrie presentation (with a truss rod), and I was wondering if older classicals without this reinforcement will eventually need attention?

Cheers.

Refrets can be done (not often needed, as Nylon strings are a lot softer than steel, but they can still wear), but a neck reset is impossible on the Spanish and Mexican guitars, and possibly on the Aria as well. The Spanish and Mexican guitars are all but certainly made with a Spanish Heal, in which the neck block and the neck are one piece of wood, and the sides are let in to the block. Frank Ford has removed the neck from ONE guitar with a Spanish heal, converting it to a bolt on neck, but it is not something which is at all advisable, even if the guitar needs a neck reset. Nylon strings, with their much lower tension, rarely need neck resets, however. The Guitar Frank did, and all the Spanish heals I've seen in need of neck resets (and I've seen an awful lot recently) were all just poorly designed steel strings (poorly designed because the builders didn't have enough experience with steel string repair to realize that a removeable neck joint is not only a good design, but an absolute requirement on a guitar with steel strings). Most of the ones I've seen have been old B.C. Rich Acoustics from the seventies.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by 32-20-Blues

Admittedly unrelated, but have you ever had to have a neck reset or re-plane on any of those guitars?

I have a la Patrie presentation (with a truss rod), and I was wondering if older classicals without this reinforcement will eventually need attention?

Cheers.

here's a neck reset

on a spanish heel

ala frank ford (his link included)

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=206779

[Light]

Originally Posted by cannabis

here's a neck reset

on a spanish heel

ala frank ford (his link included)

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=206779

I'm well familiar with it (if you had read my whole post, you would have known that), but even Frank doesn't do them very often (as in, not if he can talk the customer out of it), and he charges upwards of $1500 for it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Light

..but a neck reset is impossible on the Spanish and Mexican guitars...

no, it just takes

a little ingenuity



may not be pristine

but it is functional

and a hell of a lot better

than an unplayable guitar

[Light]

Originally Posted by cannabis

no, it just takes

a little ingenuity



may not be pristine

but it is functional

and a hell of a lot better

than an unplayable guitar

You know what? Frank is a good friend of mine. I've spoken to him at length about that repair. He's done it once.

Did it work? Yes, it did. Was the repair more expensive than the value of the guitar? By at least three times. That is not a viable repair in my book.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Light

You know what? Frank is a good friend of mine. I've spoken to him at length about that repair. He's done it once.

Did it work? Yes, it did. Was the repair more expensive than the value of the guitar? By at least three times. That is not a viable repair in my book.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

i don't mean to get into

a pissing contest with you here

(i know where you're coming from -

"don't try it yourself - leave it to professionals")

but if a person can do the repair himself

(which many here are certainly capable of -

it's elementary woodworking, not brain surgery)

then it's very viable

and can resurrect

a dead guitar



if the guitar is worth more to the owner

hanging on the wall

then leave it alone



if it's worth more

as a playable instrument

then fix it

[Light]

Originally Posted by cannabis

(which many here are certainly capable of -

it's elementary woodworking, not brain surgery)

It is FAR from being elementary woodworking. It is an extremly demanding and precise job. It may not be brain surgery, but it would be very difficult for anybody who is not highly experienced with guitar work. There are quite a few aspects of it which require a great deal of experience with the precise geometry of a guitar. Even for the experienced, it is a job not to be taken without a great deal of planning and thought.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Light

It is FAR from being elementary woodworking. It is an extremly demanding and precise job. It may not be brain surgery, but it would be very difficult for anybody who is not highly experienced with guitar work. There are quite a few aspects of it which require a great deal of experience with the precise geometry of a guitar. Even for the experienced, it is a job not to be taken without a great deal of planning and thought.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

so be it



you go your way

and i'll go mine