Proper Use of Mic Preamps

[joswil44]

This is one of those moments where I feel really stupid.

It seems like I get the idea of boosting the levels of a signal with a mic preamp.

But what I dont get is how your supposed to set your levels while using it.

I bought a Grace Design Model 101 Mic Preamp.

I also have a Mackie 32 Channel 8 Bus Analog Mixer with decent Mic Pre's.

When I bought my setup, a consultant at an Audio Design place recommended I get one for certain applications.

So I have been trying it for my Audio Technica AT4060 Tube Condesor, and a little experimentation with Direct Bass, Guitars using various Shure mics.

Basically its got the Gain knob that goes from 10db to 60 db and a Trim knob that goes from -10db to 0db.

So heres where I get lost:

Normally I set the Channel Volume Faders at 0. Adjust the Mixer trim knob accordingly and then maybe bring the master volume down a little or whatever to get the right input levels on the meter.

Now if I were to tie in a Mic Preamp, the levels are obviously going to sky rocket.

So now I have to turn down the Trim knob on the mixer and find some sort of balance between the Mic Preamp Gain Knob and the Trim knob on the mixer channel.

When I feel like the sound is decent I leave it there.

The Trim knob on the Preamp seems to add more distortion or color the sound.

Which I use a little of depending on what I am running through it.

So whats the proper way to setup a Preamp?

It seems more like it is just overloading my levels that were perfectly fine before.

What exactly am I looking to do here?

Just get a stronger signal that I end up taming down?


Im just trying to figure out what I need.

I see the bigger studios seem to have loads of Mic Preamps.

Anyone out there that can enlighten me to the use of Mic Preamps?

Thanks!

[gcapel]

Are you tracking? If so why even bother with the mackie and go straight from the grace to the converter.

If using a onyx mixer and using it as your ad conversion, then there should be a pad button of some kind on it to use it as a line in or line. Make sense?

Mic pre + Mic pre = no headroom or control and too hot levels

[joswil44]

I guess I figured I would still need it to run into the mixer to go through my direct out into the Converter.

So what your saying is that I should run my Guitar for example, XLR input to the Grace Preamp, then use the Grace's 1/4" out into my Nuendo/RME Converter? Using the Preamp Gain and Trim Knob to adjust levels?

I always thought I would be doing some EQ work on the Mackie as well, not to mention watching levels on the meter bridge.

Which I could also watch on the PC if bypassed.

Im still pretty new to alot of this so its hard not to EQ things that I dont think sound good while at the same time people recommend EQing on the DAW after tracking.

This opens up alot of concerns for my tracking process and what equipment I would be using.

When to use a preamp? When to use the Mackie?

[SRR]

Line out of the Grace to Line in on the mackie, you should notice on the mackies trim knob one set of markings for mic in and one set for the line in. So just get a balanced TRS 1/4" cable and you are all set.

Or if you want to save a step yes go straight to your conveters.

[kojdogg]

The Mackie probably still has preamps on it. You might want to make sure that you're not unintentionally distorting the signal at any point too-- especially out of the preamps and into the converters. If you send too hot a signal into the computer, it will sound like shite. Make sure your not clipping in nuendo, or you'll get digital overs, which sound terrible. If you're recording at 24 bit, you can leave some room (about 5 db (or more some say) is fine) from 0db and clipping.
Also make sure you're not overloading either the preamps on the Mackie or the Grace. Try backing off the trim on the Mackie and the gain on both and see if you the resulting recorded sound is any better.

[SRR]

When to use a preamp? When to use the Mackie?

Use the preamps you have/will get when they sound better then the mackie. Kind'a simple but its the truth.

[MISTERQCUE]

Originally Posted by SRR

Line out of the Grace to Line in on the mackie, you should notice on the mackies trim knob one set of markings for mic in and one set for the line in. So just get a balanced TRS 1/4" cable and you are all set.

The only problem with that is that you will prob'ly experience a hi'er noise level
running thru both the Grace and the Mackie's pre's

Or if you want to save a step yes go straight to your conveters.

What he said.

[riffy]

Sounds like you are doubling up your gain stages. Just do special things with your 101, like vocals or whatever. From the Grace output your 1/4" (not XLR) to either the board or your converter, depending on if you want to eq or insert a compressor for that specific track. Do you really need that big board? Or did you get a deal on it? I could really use a unit like that this weekend.

[joswil44]

Originally Posted by riffy

Sounds like you are doubling up your gain stages. Just do special things with your 101, like vocals or whatever. From the Grace output your 1/4" (not XLR) to either the board or your converter, depending on if you want to eq or insert a compressor for that specific track. Do you really need that big board? Or did you get a deal on it? I could really use a unit like that this weekend.

I never use more than 16 channels on my Mackie which is usually lots of Drum mics and a guitar track.

Besides using it for all of my inputs since I only have 1 mic preamp, I use the Monitor inputs for my Mackie HR824's and the Talkback Microphone.

The more I think about it, it also serves all of my headphone outs, gives me flexability for what users monitor while recording as far as how much drum or guitar I feed into their headphones. I dont know how I would reproduce those capabilities without it.

I bought it because I thought I needed everything it had to offer at the time.

So far I have no regrets but I could have probably made due with the 24 channel.

And I did get a good deal on it new. That was the advantage of working with the guys at Proaudiodesign.com

They were extrememly flexable on prices and got me better deals than Guitar Center, Musiciansfriend or anywhere else that usually has good prices.

I am sure I saved about $4000 working with them on my whole setup.

[Robert D]

The Grace is an outstandingly clean preamp. Like a perfectly clean window pane, if you place a second, not so clean window pane right behind it, it doesn't matter how clean the 1st windowpane is, you will only see as clearly as the 2nd pane. This holds equally true with outputting the Grace through the Mackie. If you want to get what you paid for when you bought the Grace, go directly out of it and into your converters, and bypass the Mackie. Many folks would advise you not to pre eq a track anyway, using careful mic placement to get the tone you want at the front end, and saving EQ tweaks for later if needed.
Having said all that, there may be times when the Grace may be too clean, and a less sterile mic pre is what you want, but you'll find that out by experiment and experience.

[joswil44]

Originally Posted by Robert D

The Grace is an outstandingly clean preamp. Like a perfectly clean window pane, if you place a second, not so clean window pane right behind it, it doesn't matter how clean the 1st windowpane is, you will only see as clearly as the 2nd pane. This holds equally true with outputting the Grace through the Mackie. If you want to get what you paid for when you bought the Grace, go directly out of it and into your converters, and bypass the Mackie. Many folks would advise you not to pre eq a track anyway, using careful mic placement to get the tone you want at the front end, and saving EQ tweaks for later if needed.
Having said all that, there may be times when the Grace may be too clean, and a less sterile mic pre is what you want, but you'll find that out by experiment and experience.

Everything you are saying makes perfect sense and would explain why studios have multiple types of Mic Preamps to choose from.

So take someone like Andy Sneap. He lists his gear on his website.

www.andysneap.com


Desk and Pres

- Amek 9098 Eq and Pre x 2
- Colemans TB4 Monitoring system
- Crane Song Spider 8 Channel Pre
- Dangerous 2 Bus 16 x 2
- Digidesign Control 24
- Focusrite Red Quad Pre
- SSL G series stereo EQ and Pres


Monitors

- Bryston 2B Pro Amp
- Dynaudio M1's
- Genelec 1030's
- Genelec 1031's x 5 + 1092 sub
- Yamaha NS10's

Outboard

- Alan Smart SSL Stereo Compressor
- Alesis D4
- D Drum 4
- DBX 120XP Sub Unit
- DBX 160 x 2 (older ones)
- Emperial Labs Distressor
- Klark Technics 360 Stereo Graphic
- POD XT Pro
- RNC Compressor
- Sansamp PSA1
- SPL Transient Designer (4 way)
- TC Electronics Finalizer Plus
- TC Electronics M2000
- Tube Tech LCA2B Stereo Compressor

Lets say some of that stuff isnt needed.

But which items are an absolute staple to acheiving the pro sound?

I can work on my skills with practice and the right information.

I can work on my sound treatment to make sure I can accurately caputure and monitor my recordings.

But what kind of gear or even plugins will I need to achieve the pro sound?

Its very likely that the Control 24 is simply his way of using hands on features of his DAW software unlike me using my mouse and keyboard the whole time. And possibly some monitoring connections.

And the rest is all fed into Mic Pres, EQs Compressors and sent into the Digital Converters to be recorded and if needed edited more digitally?

Perhaps I was entering a world stuck between Analog and Digital recording methods which led me to get the Mackie 8 Bus in the first place.

I dont think DAW's were quite what they have become today and now theres so many ways to do this stuff that it could be more simplistic.

I probably should just sign up for some good recording classes and hire someone to come over and assess my setup and fully utilize it to its capabilities.

Sometimes I just want to quit and then I do something that sounds great and want more.....

Argh....


I think I need a break!!