When you pan something...

[darkecho]

say (on a 100 point scale) 40 degrees to the left, is ALL of that sound wave going to be contained within the space between 39 and 41?

or is 40 where the center of a wider sound goes?

for instance, if you have a mono track at 0 and its sounds extends 3 degrees both direction (so its audible range is -3 to +3; and centered at 0) and pan that signal all the way to the right(+100) are you going to be cutting off half(or whatever amount) of that signal because it can only go to 100 and the midpoint of that signal is at 100, thus you have its range from 97-103 but cannot go past 100 so you lose the other half?

this probably sounds very confusing... i guess how much space does a given sound take up on the spectrum of possible panning positions?


cause if what I said was true and a given sound extends 3 degrees in either direction from the mid point, then if you put it at 100 (and 100 is the mid point) you wont be able to go to 103, so you would have only 97-100, not 97-103...

is this making any sense to anyone?

[drstawl]

It's just a nominal method of describing the relative amplitude of the signal applied to each of the Left and Right channels.

[darkecho]

...so is there an answer for my question?

are you saying that the sound extends outward in both directions beyond one degree? or are you saying that all of the amplitude for a sound is contained within a single degree?

so if you took 100 seperate sounds, and panned them each to a different consecutive degree, 100.99.98 etc, that none of them will overlap?

and if they do overlap, how much? or does it depend on the sound.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by drstawl

It's just a nominal method of describing the relative amplitude of the signal applied to each of the Left and Right channels.

exactly

I think you're thinking way too much about this. Panning is just raising and lowering the volume in the left/right channels. As you slowly pan something to the left it's the same thing as slowly lowering the volume for the right channel and bringing up the volume of the left channel just a smidge. To the human ear it sounds like it's actually moving left to right when in actuality it's not...it's just getting louder or softer in it's respective channel.

[darkecho]

ok, i understand, i hadnt thought of that.............

but my question still stands, if you "pan" something 40 to the left, where is the closest you can pan a seperate sound before it overlaps? or is it dependand on the sound?

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by darkecho

but my question still stands, if you "pan" something 40 to the left, where is the closest you can pan a seperate sound before it overlaps? or is it dependand on the sound?

depends on the sound.
The "width" of a sound is determinant not only on where you physically pan it, but also it's frequency/phasic characteristics. This can vary from instrument to instrument, with what kind of microphone you use, how you mix the sound, whether or not you use delays, how it interacts with other sounds in the mix, etc.
However, technically the sound is always going to overlap unless you pan the two sounds to completely two different speakers (hard left/hard right). Again, like I said above, panning has to do with how much volume is in each speaker. If it's panned all the way hard left or hard right...the sound is ONLY coming out that speakers. If you pan it to +/-40...the sound is going to mostly come out of one channel but also still have a slight bit of volume in the other. If you pan it in the middle, the sound is coming out of both speakers evenly (this makes it sound like it's panned in the middle).
So if you had one signal at +40 and the other at -60...one signal is mostly in the right channel and the other one mostly in the left channel...but they still have a little bit of sound coming out of the other one's channel (if that makes sense). Try it and see. Solo an instrument, pan it to -60 and you'll still hear a little bit of it in the other speaker.
Again, the sound doesn't physically move back and forth...it just gets louder or softer.

[darkecho]

right, I understand that... but isnt the panning scale supposed to give you a visual representation of where the sound should "sound" like its coming from?

like if you pan it center, it sounds like its centere, if you pann it 50% left, it sounds 50% left..



I ambeginning to think that maybe my quesiton is not relevant...

what I am trying to figure out is how to pan things to keep them from "overlapping" eachother, or to keep them from getting in the way of each other...


so if you pan something all the way left, you are losing no segments of the sound, the mono signal is just being reproduced in the left speaker, but the signal is being fully reproduced non the less...

the movement of the sound is more of a psychological effect, than an actual physical one its just loud vs soft...

[bennychico11]

use your ears.
that's what it comes down to it.
(How wide a signal sounds too also depends on the physical location of your speakers. If you have them too wide, its going to sound wide without panning very much. The opposite is true if they are too close to eachother).

A lot of times when people are saying that things are clashing with one another, the answer isn't necessarily to just pan them away from eachother. Sometimes you can't do that (kick drum/bass). So you compromise with use of EQ and leveling. Think about it.
What did I say panning was? Just changing the volume of a the mono signal in each speaker channel, right? So if currently you're using panning to help avoid the clashing of instruments...couldn't you just adjust the amplitude of the signal in the channel it's already in? Wouldn't that be the same thing. Now you can keep both instruments in the same place on the horizontal plane, but they aren't clashing as much.
Okay, you say..."but I want to keep the bass and kick drum in the middle and if I decrease the volume of one of them too much I lose the sound I'm looking for!"
So let's take it a step further; use EQ. Instead of changing the amplitude of the entire sound, why not just change it for a portion of the sound? So if the lows of the bass and kick drum are getting in the way of eachother, EQ some of the lower frequencies of one of those instruments out to make room for the other. I think you'll find you can hear them both clearer now. You'll have to play around with it so you still keep the brunt of the sound without getting in the way.

[RAK]

I hope I get this first part right (and that it's usefull here), but in olden times, if you sent a signal (say like your bass, for fun) to both the L&R it would be twice as loud as if it was just going to the left or the right (the two signals combine each at full volume).

Then Disney came along and developed the Pan Pot (Panoramic Potentionmeter). When you're panned hard right or hard left the signal is at 100% strength. When the pot is in the center, you have 50% strength from each gong to each side, thus allowing the volume to stay constant.

This is going back in my mind a few years ago, so I hope I got my stories straight.

[RAK]

Originally Posted by darkecho

the movement of the sound is more of a psychological effect, than an actual physical one its just loud vs soft...

That's your phantom center. If you have two speakers with the same thing coming from both, and you're sitting equidistant from them, then the sound appears to be coming from the center, even though there's no speaker there.

Now once you start changing the volume, or distance, or adding delay, that phantom center begins to degrade.

I'd do some research into psychoacoustics, it's pretty interesting stuff. Things like the Haas effect, and how the ear localizes different sounds.

[solo.guitar]

Originally Posted by RAK

I hope I get this first part right (and that it's usefull here), but in olden times, if you sent a signal (say like your bass, for fun) to both the L&R it would be twice as loud as if it was just going to the left or the right (the two signals combine each at full volume).

Then Disney came along and developed the Pan Pot (Panoramic Potentionmeter). When you're panned hard right or hard left the signal is at 100% strength. When the pot is in the center, you have 50% strength from each gong to each side, thus allowing the volume to stay constant.

This is going back in my mind a few years ago, so I hope I got my stories straight.

I'm pretty sure that's right.

A mono signal panned center will be 50% volume in left, and 50% in right.

A mono signal panned 60% left, will be at 60% volume in left, and 40% in right.

Some software, like Adobe Audition, have different options for panning/volume.

[darkecho]

hmm so now im curious, when i take a single guitar track and duplicate it, and then pann both of those seperate tracks the complete opposite (hard left and hard right) it still sounds like its coming from the center at the exact same volume..

i did this by splitting a continuous song down the middle and taking the second half and putting it into two other tracks that were panned, so it was the best AB situation possible, anyways

this I assume is due to the psycho acoustics right? because as long as those two signals are equdistant from the center, it will sound centered.

now if you take the same riff but recorded two seperate times, then pann each of those signals harf left and hard right, it doesnt sound centered, it sounds as wide as it should...

is this just because of the fact that a human will *never* reproduce the same exact recording twice? are there instances where you play it "too identical" and create a centered sounding track (in which case you would actually have to re record it and play it not so perfect?)


has anyone else ever noticed what I am talking about? try duplicating a sound and pan both of those identical copies hard left and hard right and it will sound just as centered as if you has a single mono copy panned dead center..


the answer to this question may or may not answer another question I have.. but Ill wait till this is figured out

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by darkecho

has anyone else ever noticed what I am talking about? try duplicating a sound and pan both of those identical copies hard left and hard right and it will sound just as centered as if you has a single mono copy panned dead center..

this question is asked in a different form very frequently.
Many beginners try and record a single microphone (mono signal) onto a stereo track thinking that they want to have their recording playing back in stereo and this is the way to do it. When in fact it does absolutely nothing except put the exact same thing on two different tracks. All this accomplishes is making your instrument louder. The same thing could be accomplished by just turning up the mono track +3dB. People mistake this when they are trying to "double" a track.
Like I said above, this has to do with when two exact same sounds are played back at equal amplitude...they are going to sound as if they were in the middle of your stereo field.

The correct way to double a track would be to record it again. Because there will be slight changes in tone, frequencies, amplitude, etc., it gives the new take its own special sound. So when you pan the two trakcs hard L/R it gives you a whole new sound. Basically it's just a phasing of the frequencies (good phase)
I've never known anyone to record the exact same thing a second time as to where it's perfectly in line with the first take (someone once claimed a voclaist did this...but I think he was blowing smoke).

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by darkecho

right, I understand that... but isnt the panning scale supposed to give you a visual representation of where the sound should "sound" like its coming from?
...like if you pan it center, it sounds like its centere, if you pann it 50% left, it sounds 50% left.. ...what I am trying to figure out is how to pan things to keep them from "overlapping" eachother, or to keep them from getting in the way of each other...

As odd as it might seem, even though you can sweep something and hear it go across the sound field, there may not be all that many points between center and 100%. I'd guess just a hand full (that's a technical term.. ) and would also depend a lot on the imaging quality of the monitor and room.
Seat of the pants example; Two voices tracked mono panned center. Now move each out left and right 5 or 10%. I'd expect it to start sounding 'stereo' (wider) before they became separate images.
Certainly if you're talking about many points and voices (instruments) there's is a lot more overlap than points between.

Check 'Hass panning' or 'precedence/delay panning' too.
Wayne