Live Vocal Monitors: in-ear or on the floor?

[Jack Russell]

Not sure if this is the best forum for this but here goes.

In-ear monitors vs. floor monitors???

I'm trying to cobble together a monitor system for my band to use for practicing. I have a 15" floor monitor, and I have two 12" speakers, and plans for building two additional floor monitors with them (for vocals).

But what about just getting an in-ear monitoring system instead?

What are the costs, and pros and cons? I'm seeing a wide variety of prices for an in-ear system. If I buy ON THE CHEAP, will it sound LIKE CRAP?

[poll to follow]

[MCreel]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

Not sure if this is the best forum for this but here goes.

I'm trying to cobble together a monitor system for my band to use for practicing. I a 15" floor monitor, and I have two 12" speakers, and plans for building two additional floor monitors (for vocals).

But what about just getting an in-ear monitoring system instead?

What are the costs, and pros and cons? I'm seeing a wide variety of prices for an in-ear system. If I buy ON THE CHEAP, will it sound LIKE CRAP?

[poll to follow]

It depends on various factors, but in general, and especially for short range applications, the most important piece is the ear bud. That REALLY determines how good it sounds.

For longer range apps, you then experience diminished signal quality with lower cost systems.

I use the Sennheiser Evolution IEMs and its a good little system. Every now and then I get some small problem.....this past Saturday I was geeting static from the wireless mic for some reason. But overall I would HIGHLY recommend that system. You can get a full unit for one person for about $400 or $500 I believe. You can also do multiple body packs off one transmitter, but that only gives you one mix.

[Zaphod B]

You can limit your noise exposure with earbud monitors.

I wish those things had been around when I was performing live.

.

[RAK]

With IEMs would you be thinking wired or wireless? That will have an impact on your price/options.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by RAK

With IEMs would you be thinking wired or wireless? That will have an impact on your price/options.

This is all new to me. My budget is way gone. I assume I'd go for a wired system. We're using it for practice in a small space so we will not be moving very much. When we play live, we'd most often go with what the clubs have, or rent something.

[RAK]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

This is all new to me. My budget is way gone. I assume I'd go for a wired system. We're using it for practice in a small space so we will not be moving very much. When we play live, we'd most often go with what the clubs have, or rent something.

Well you might want to take a look at the Shure PSM line. The PSM200 system is the entry level system, and is available in both a wired and wireless system. Actually the bodypack is a hybrid wired/wireless system that can work both ways.

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Produc...tems/index.htm

This is the disclaimer where I point out I work at Shure.

But, in working as a house audio engineer before I came to Shure, I always had the best luck with the acts that brought in Shure wireless systems (that's also what we had at the Center). Take that for what you will.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by RAK

Well you might want to take a look at the Shure PSM line. The PSM200 system is the entry level system, and is available in both a wired and wireless system. Actually the bodypack is a hybrid wired/wireless system that can work both ways.

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Produc...tems/index.htm

This is the disclaimer where I point out I work at Shure.

But, in working as a house audio engineer before I came to Shure, I always had the best luck with the acts that brought in Shure wireless systems (that's also what we had at the Center). Take that for what you will.

Thanks for the link. Looks like $600 is about the bottom line for an IEM system. I'm looking at spending about $50 in plywood, $150 for some horns, and then I'd have my floor monitors built with the speakers I have. It's a dilemma.

[Jack Russell]

On the other hand, how about this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/AKG-AKGART-Studio-Headphone-Pack?sku=241540

This (AKG headphone mixer and 4 headphones) is only $130. A lot cheaper than the the low-end IEM. Why not???

[RAK]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

On the other hand, how about this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/AKG-AKGART-Studio-Headphone-Pack?sku=241540

This (AKG headphone mixer and 4 headphones) is only $130. A lot cheaper than the the low-end IEM. Why not???

Unfortunetly the link didn't work. I guess it depends if you want a system you can use at an actual gig. Most bands don't want be wearing full-size headphones up on stage.
Also one of the big advantages of IEMs over headphones (besides portability) is the passive sound isolation. Because they go in your ears and create a nice seal, you can actually be listening at much lower volumes, and not have to compete with outside noise.
If you wanted to go for more of a "studio" setting, than a headphone amp and headphones would be just fine.

[Ford Van]

For a practice system, you should go with what you will gig with.

If you plan to take your in-ear system to gigs, then great! Get an in-ear system. You WILL hear yourself better, have a better monitor "mix", and your overall live sound will be clearer because you will not be filling the room in the audience section with that freakin' annoying 100-400Hz low mids that the monitors will "add" to the audience perspective of sound. In-ears are also much better for the long term health of your hearing.

If you plan to use house monitoring systems, practicing with in-ears will mess you up when you do go to floor monitors. I have seen many bands do this. They get used to hearing themselves very well in practice, then go do a gig and the monitors are not as good as they are used to and they really struggle.

If I was "starting from scratch", there is NO DOUBT in my mind that I would invest in a decent in-ear system and use that at every practice and gig. It is totally worth the extra expense!

[RAK]

Nice comments Ford Van,

Another comment about IEMs. Because they isolate so well, some musicians find it a little strange to be so cut off from the audience. One way to combate that is to set up an audience mic (or a shotgun on the stage or whatever) and pipe some of that ambience into the mix so you can hear some the natural environment.

[MCreel]

Originally Posted by RAK

Nice comments Ford Van,

Another comment about IEMs. Because they isolate so well, some musicians find it a little strange to be so cut off from the audience. One way to combate that is to set up an audience mic (or a shotgun on the stage or whatever) and pipe some of that ambience into the mix so you can hear some the natural environment.

Yeah that does bother me sometimes when someone is trying to talk to me.

But then again it keeps them from grabbing my head and screaming into my ear.

[Ford Van]

Most of the people I know who use them only use an in-ear in one ear.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

Most of the people I know who use them only use an in-ear in one ear.

Interesting. I would think that would really become annoying and disturbing after awhile.

[Jack Russell]

Another thing about IEMs:

I use earplugs for protection (have bad hearing and I want to still hear in my old age). Once you replace that with an IEM, do they offer the same protection from outside noise? Are there special IEMs that reduce noise levels and a monitor mix?

[RAK]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

Another thing about IEMs:

I use earplugs for protection (have bad hearing and I want to still hear in my old age). Once you replace that with an IEM, do they offer the same protection from outside noise? Are there special IEMs that reduce noise levels and a monitor mix?

All IEMs offer good sound isolation. The amount depends somewhat on the design and the type of sleeve you use (unless you go custom of course, then there's no sleeve). The type of sound isolation that IEMs offer is passive, as opposed to any active noise cancelling technology that requires a battery and employs a microphone and phase cancellation technology (try fitting all that in something the size of an IEM).
Sound Isolating earphones, on the other hand, just stick in your ears, and block the sound that way, and usually offer more dB of noise reduction. The beauty is because the outside noise is reduced, you can listen to your music at much lower volumes and help preserve your hearing.
The Shure line of earphones that accompany our PSM systems is the same line that is offered through our Personal Audio division for personal listening - meaning that what you buy for you iPod is the same thing the professional musicians are using.
Incidentally, included with our recently released new model (E500) is something called the PTH - Push To Hear, it is an inline device with a microphone and a switch, that when you push it, mutes the music from your player (iPod or whatever) and activates the microphone so you can have a conversation with someone with the phones still in your ear.

I apologize if this is getting to sales-y, I think those who know me on this board know that's not why I'm here. I don't even work in sales. As I said there are many options out there, but if anyone ever has any questions about Shure related stuff, I'm happy to help where I can.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by RAK

I apologize if this is getting to sales-y, I think those who know me on this board know that's not why I'm here. I don't even work in sales. As I said there are many options out there, but if anyone ever has any questions about Shure related stuff, I'm happy to help where I can.

That's o.k. I appreciate you taking the time to go into detail. You have been very helpful!
Thanks, JR

[xstatic]

Givin the situation you are describing, I would just go without the ears for now. If you practice with ears, then it will be pretty akward to play shows without them.

Pro's of IEM's.... Good isolation, easier to add certain effects, you can get some spacial imagry, you can get away with lower volumes (although there are studioes that show that the damage caused is about the same with or without using IEM's), drastically reduces feedback issues, easier to shape the tone, freedom of mobility without worries about hearing properly.

Cons of IEM's - Batteries, RF Interference, cost, proper fitting of ear peices (many people have problems with ears staying in without custom molds, this can prove to be very irritating and distracting), detachment from surroundings, volume (many many bands play loud enough that your budget ear systems can not keep up... this definately includes the Shure PSM200's), monitor mix is harder to assemble since now you can hear so well and demand a different level of quality, everything needs to be mic'ed in order to keep a smooth ear mix.

After working with well over 1000 bands live and at least a couple hundred bands that use IEM's, this is my experience. Go with the Shure systems, but try and save up and get the PSM 600 or 700 unless your stage volume is fairly low, and then the PSM 200's also become a viable option. The reason I do not reccomend the PSM 400's is the plastic body pack that will inevitably get dropped and break. I would say that at least 90% of the bands that I have worked with that use IEM's are using Shure transmitters and receivers. Most of those bands are NOT using Shure ear peices though. Personally, the e3's seem "ok" to me, the e5's are definately a step up. I have not personally used or worked with the e4's, so I can not accurately give an impression of them. I find that most bands are using Futuresonics or Ultimate ears. Almost all of them have told me that they started with shure ear peices, but greatly prefer the Futuresonics and Ultimate Ears buds, and they often cost less as well. Many people have told me about their nightmares with things like Nady IEM's and AKG IEM's. The Sennheiser users seem to be pretty happy, but many have switched over to the Shure's for more consistency and reliability. The Sennheiser models from the last couple of years seem to do much better than they used to though, so at this point in time, I would even consider Sennheiser as an option.

[chrisharris]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

Most of the people I know who use them only use an in-ear in one ear.

bingo.

It's all been said in here somewhere, but I'm a fan of the in ear monitor. Crap sound or not, it's generally a LOT easier for me to hear myself with an IEM system than from the floor. And the sound certainly doesn't have to be crap.

Plus, people forget that loud stage volume can seriously impact the FOH sound...bouncing off of the back walls and into the mix...just makes it harder for the crowd AND the band to hear.

It took me many years to realize that turning my monitor UP was NOT the answer. Anyway, I was the first guy to get them in my little band, and I found that not only did it help me hear better, it saved my voice too...when you're screaming out a vocal to hear over the din, it's rough on the voice...

Pros - you hear better, which means you perform better; less feedback
Cons - money. Takes some jack to outfit a 5 piece band compared to wedges...and you'd better go ahead and buy stock in Duracell because you'll be needing a buncha' 9 volts.

[zacanger]

Personally, I hate in-ears.

[timboZ]

OK what about hotspots or floor wedges?

[zacanger]

Originally Posted by timboZ

OK what about hotspots or floor wedges?

Wedges for me, usually.

[cephus]

I think zangocaster is mostly full of shit, but I agree with him here. I guess I am just used to being able to flinch from the floor monitors. I have used the IEM a few times on sub gigs and was nearly decapitated from the occasional feedback squeal. I tried to do the one ear thing, but noticed on the way home that the ear with the IEM was bleeding much more profusely than the one that I listened to my guitar with.

If you have your shit together you can probably get superior results with the IEM, but most people I know don't have their shit together (me included) and the risk is really great for funnelling an unnatural blast of noise into your ear.

[xstatic]

I guess I must have my shit together because none of my guys have EVER had that happen to them in their ears.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

Interesting. I would think that would really become annoying and disturbing after awhile.

I wouldn't think so, when I did sound I usually kept on side of a can on my bad ear--in case I wanted to check something out, I could dial it in the can--and I kept my good ear on the house