Saxophonist Needs Practice Room in Basement

[baffled]

Hi Y'all,
I stumbled upon your recording studio forum while looking for a solution for my practice room problem. I'm sectioning off a corner of my basement for the room and have had a hell of a time figuring out which way to go with the sound dampening. I considered using QuietRock but I just found out my local distributor wants $190/4x8 sheet! I'll need @ 9 sheets, you do the math. They use an stc rating for their product and I can't figure how it relates to nrc and so on. Will resilent channel on the floor joist and dry wall overhead do the trick?

I'm also unsure of the musical pitch to khz equivelance so it's difficult to pick a product that has been rated by nrc for each khz. I play tenor sax by the way.

Basically, I'm worried about sound going up through the floor and waking up my kid, soon to be kids.

Help!

[punkin]

Tell us about the room in it's existing condition. Is it finished? Dimensions? More about your structure and the room please.

[baffled]

Originally Posted by punkin

Tell us about the room in it's existing condition. Is it finished? Dimensions? More about your structure and the room please.

Thanks for the reply punkin,
The room will be roughly 12x12 in the corner of my basement. I'm only putting up two walls and leaving the other two foundation walls uncovered/unfinished. I don't think much is going to pass through my 18"- thick stone foundation and I'm not worried about the sound inside the room. It doesn't have to be perfect it's just to practice. The two new walls are 2x4 wood studs. I know steel studs are better but I already bought the lumber before I found that info. I, also purchased a solid core door. Above are the 2x8 floor joists, nothing else.

My biggest concern is sound escaping upstairs and then to the second floor of my cape where my son sleeps. So I'd really like to do a bang up job finishing the ceiling.

[TimOBrien]

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

You can use the concepts of his traps in the joists of the floor....

(another tenor player here)

[Innovations]

Here is the answer to your question about frequencies.

Fortunately a saxaphone is not as much trouble to isolate as drums.

Since you are already planning and bought lumber for a single rather than double stud wall what I would suggest is to go with two layers of gypsum board on the inside on hat channel. If you could afford it I would suggest going one level more and use RSIC-1 mounts for the hat channel.

[chugheshc]

Hi Baffled,
I just finished doing EXACTLY what you are going to do.
I put sheetrock up over the two foundation walls, just to
have a nicer surfece; building the other two walls, I put up two seperate
sole plates, and built two walls, and I put a ceiling in over the space,
suspended from the interior wall.
2 layers of 1/2" drywall on the interiors/ceiling, one layer on the outside of the exterior wall, insulation in the cavity in between.
two solid core doors with gas spring closers. I can play trumpet, electric guitar and hit the drums moderatly hard without really bothering anyone on the first or second floors.
cheers
C>

[baffled]

Innovations,
Thanks so much for the attachment. It helps.

chugheshc,
Thanks to you too.
Sounds like you gotta a nice little sanctuary. Suspending a ceiling would be a little difficult in my particular situation due to various crap in the way. I wonder if I could get the same affect using the resiliant channel on the ceiling and doubling up on the drywall?

Oh, and Thanks to Tim OBrian for the reply!

[chugheshc]

I don't know... I didn't take the time to research/acquire suspended channel.
I gave up almost 5 inches of head room to get my ceiling, I think(hope) it was well worth it. I had plaster/lathes on the original ceiling, plus heating pipes going through my space. I kept the heating pipes (big money to move those) and scrficed time to work around the pipes, and gave up the head room to get the ceiling in. I hope that what I did works better than the channel would, as the ceiling is only physically coupled to the inner wall (and then to the floor of the basement). It was a huge pain in the ass to go through all this - it was expensive to get a guy to hang the drywall like I wanted, and it was alot
of work figuring out how to suspend the ceiling joists from the inside walls.
(mostly a lot of work because I am not much of a carpenter).
the double door thing really helped - our washer/dryers are 5 feet from them,
and I can't hear them inside the studio.

[baffled]

chugheshc,
I know what you mean about working around stuff. I have a waste water pipe that circles three of the four basement walls. The only wall it doesn't cover is where the central air, air handler is. Not only that, but because of there being duct work and stuff everywhere my room is going to have the oil tank in it. You know, for a little of that post-modern industrial look

Anyway, so I guess the only thing holding up the inner walls in your room is the suspended ceiling.

[knightfly]

You still haven't mentioned your ceiling height; but if it's anywhere NEAR 8 feet (and even if it's NOT) you may want to look at options for different length and width if possible - a 12 x 12 room will give you a pretty uneven sound, you'd be better off making it more of a rectangle with neither of the walls being divisible by the height -

if your ceiling were, for example, finished at 7.5 feet, then inner dimensions of 11 and 13 feet would be a MUCH more even sounding room requiring MINIMUM acoustic treatment (after isolation is taken care of) so your playing can be pleasant instead of painful -

Just a thought, if you can implement it you'll thank me... Steve

[baffled]

knightfly,
The ceiling height is just under 7' 2" after I finish it. The wall lengths were estimates but it is pretty square. 10'8" x 10'10" I just got done framing out the two walls. You're thoughts on the sound quality with these dimensions would be great.
Keith

[baffled]

Hi Y'all,
I've been reading more and more and realize that my head could explode at any moment! I appreciate those that have responded given my weak project description and lack of knowledge. When I finally decided I needed a practice sanctuary I thought "How hard could this be?" I throw up a couple walls and throw up some insulation.. Done. I hear the chuckles now. I'm getting lost and redirected in all the info.

So here is my primary goal. To keep the sound in the room enough so my wife can watch t.v. and my son not wake up. A little sound seapage is o.k.

Secondly, as knightfly suggested, I do want the sound bearable. not perfect, bearable. If that means taking my square room and moving a wall over before I throw up drywall so be it. If all I have to do to fix a painful acoustic problem is throw up a freakin' mattress pad, beautiful. I'm not recording, just woodsheddin'. I'll leave the recording to you guys. Man, I thought being a musician was synonymous with suffering. You guys take it to the next level. I mean that as an industry jest so I hope you're laughing not getting ready to rip me a new one.
Take care,
Keith

[knightfly]

Here's a chart per your earlier comment -

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html

And those dimensions will work fairly well, there's only a "hole" in bass response around 50 hZ but the lowest normal note on tenor sax per the chart is around 103 hZ (about the middle of that page)

With zero treatment inside, you're not gonna like what you hear very much - and with that low a ceilings it's gonna be tough to fix it all. You can smooth out the room in general by attaching at least 3" thick mineral wool or rigid fiberglass in 2' wide batts, diagonally across your wall-ceiling corners - start with at least two adjacent walls, play/listen BEFORE you do this so you can hear what it does, then add to taste. IF there's room, vertical corners can also be treated this way.

You will probably want to put up some bookshelves in there, with randomly placed books/nicnacks, etc, to break up flutter echo (clap your hands inside once the room's done if you wanna know what flutter is :=) - if the room's too bright, maybe an area rug (so you can take it out if it kills too much high end)

IF you can, it'd help to post a pic or two of your ceiling as it is NOW, shot while laying on the floor and looking diagonally across the room - convert to jpg and size it down to about 600 pixels wide or it won't upload, this forum has fairly small size restrictions. Pix would help us help you figure out a plan of attack for your ceiling... Steve

[baffled]

Steve,
Thanks for your reply. I thought ya'll might have left me for dead so I really appreciate your thoughts. I'll try to get those pics up as soon as possible. I'm not too savy with that stuff so give me a little time.

The room will be a little ugly sounding with two walls being left as the original stone foundation. However, when you say to put the bats diagonally across the "wall-ceiling corners" that wasn't a typo right? You meant the corners where the ceiling meets the wall, not "wall, ceiling, corners".

The floor is going to be covered with those interlocking foam mats. I hoped they might stop a little of the high end emphasized by the stone walls.

I'm also a little concerned about the floor joists. Right above this room is my wifes baby grand. Do you think they can handle that weight plus double drywall below? They are 2x8's in twelve foot spans. I need a little more input on construction but I'll leave that until i get the pics up.
Thanks once again,
Keith

[knightfly]

Yes, I meant wall-to-ceiling corners, because your room is relatively small so I was trying to keep you from having to take up all your vertical corners thereby reducing usable floor space.

With an 11 foot span, I hope your 2x8 floor joists are on 12" centers, or are doubled; a typical baby grand weighs around 550-750 pounds - this, supported on three legs spread out over about 10 square feet or so. This means that to be safe you need at least 70-80 PSF live load - 2x8 douglas fir #2 and better spans 10'2" for 80 live, 20 dead PSF - I bet that if your room's floor is flat, you can measure over a half inch less headroom in the middle of the room than at the sides. Adding another 2.3 PSF per layer of wallboard would NOT be a good plan til we know more about your construction.

Take your time and get it right, we'll be here sooner or later after you post... Steve

[baffled]

Well, here are the pics. I hope the resolution is good enough to get an idea. That 64kb limit is tuff.

I'm gonna suffer with that a.c. duct overhead but not much I can do about that. The end studs that meet the stone foundation will be filled with morter. The existing wiring will be moved and I'll add some outlets. It looks like I'm going to sister(double) the floor joists overhead to take on the weight of the double drywall. Only 5" of headroom before the top of the door so... I don't think I can suspend seperate ceiling joists. Hope you can offer some insight. Thanks in advance.
Keith

[chugheshc]

4 inches.. well, you could put 2" deep cut-down 2X4s, 12 spacing, and hang
them with deck hardware.... be a lot of work, but so is sistering the overhead joists. I (in my very, very, limited experience) would bet that hanging the ceiling from your new walls & the foundation walls will beat hat-channeling a ceiling onto the existing (sistered) joists.
are you not doubling the 2 walls you are putting up?
here's a bunch of my space under construction - looks a lot like your situation.
studio space pictures
C.

[Innovations]

I would stick with my recommendation for two layers of gypsum board on the ceiling and add a recommendation of adding somw unfaced pink fluffy insulation between the joists so that you have a mass-cushion-mass arrangement. I would also recommend making no penetrations in the ceiling. In other words keep that surface mounted light surface mounted.

If you are uncertain about the ability of the joists to take the load make the first layer of the ceiling plywood glued and screwed. That will add strength to the lower web of the joists, essentially making them like I beams.

[baffled]

Originally Posted by chugheshc

4 inches.. well, you could put 2" deep cut-down 2X4s, 12 spacing, and hang
them with deck hardware.... be a lot of work, but so is sistering the overhead joists. I (in my very, very, limited experience) would bet that hanging the ceiling from your new walls & the foundation walls will beat hat-channeling a ceiling onto the existing (sistered) joists.
are you not doubling the 2 walls you are putting up?
here's a bunch of my space under construction - looks a lot like your situation.
studio space pictures
C.

Did you mean taking 2x4's and ripping them down to 2x2's? I'm not sure, but even with 12" centers it sounds like they would sag quite a bit with 2 layers of drywall. Anyway, even if they would handle it I wouldn't be able to do it. If you look at the corner shot where the oil tank is you'll see the fill pipe and vent pipe exit right at the top of the foundation wall. I would have to make at least the drywall lower than the pipes but that would put it below the top of the door. I appreciate the input but I don't think I could go that route. I would have to rest the frame on top of the foundation wall to clear the door but after looking at it, it looks like the same amount of work as sistering the joists.

As for the walls, I was thinking I'd double drywall the inside and listen to my results. Then, if needed, I would throw up the second wall.

I noticed you nailed one of your walls to your center beam without touching the joists. I did the same thing. Lots of mass in that beam. I think it will still send vibrations upstairs but not nearly as bad if I had connected that wall to a header connected to the joists.
Keith

[baffled]

Innovations,
Thanks for the reply. I was wondering which way I should go with the insulation. You mentioned using unfaced bats. Is there a reason not to have a vapor barrier.

[chugheshc]

you're probably right, I was just armchair quarterbacking on the 2" thing.
-----
it's a total pain in the ass working around stuff, my whole basement is full of pipes, off level floors, jogs in the walls, ledge around the edge where it goes from brick to stone. I started in August 2005 and finished in... well maybe next month? I figure I have 300 - 600 hours in the whole project, at least 100 hours in my pocket studio... sheesh thats almost an hour per square foot?
labor of love, obviously.
C.

[baffled]

Anyone out there?
Steve,
I was hoping you would get back to me after posting the pics of the ceiling to give me your thoughts on how to go about isolating it. Anyone else's thought are appreciated as well. Thanks everyone.
Keith

[Giganova]

Hey baffled --

have you seen this saxophone practice room already? Text is in German, but you can scroll down to see pics.

http://www.simplysax.de/Proberaum.htm

Cheers,
Stefan

[baffled]

Thanks Stefan,
Looks like he's got himself a nice little room. Wish I could understand more German. I wonder if that was just standard 24" (or some metric equivalent) batts. I also haven't come across those isolation clips for metal studs before. I could have used some of those. Thanks for the link.
Keith

[TimOBrien]

Originally Posted by baffled

Wish I could understand more German.

Keith, just go to babelfish.altavista.com and copy the URL of the webpage into the "Translate a Web Page" box.
Set it on the dropdown menu to go from German to English.

Easy!