analog mixer console how to do automation?

[walters]

The Mackie Onyx 4880 Premium analog mixing console
Carvin SL56 sereies 56 channel 8 bus analog mixing console
Behrigner MX9000 48 line inputs analog mixer console

don't have automation how can i do 48 tracks of automation during mixdown?
when the mixing board is analog

The recorder have 48 outputs going to a mixing console either a Mackie Onyx 4880 Premium analog mixing console ,Carvin SL56 sereies 56 channel 8 bus analog mixing console, Behrigner MX9000 48 line inputs analog mixer console
how would i be able to do automation with these mixing boards?

If the digital recorder is sending out direct outputs for each channel so its 48 outputs going to a 48 channel mixer console "Analog" going to a DAT 2 track recorder or CD-R recorder how is it possible to do automation like this with a analog 48 channel mixer?

It is best to but the 48 channle mixer console of the recorders in playback "inserts sends" instead of the direct outputs so the track audio in running through the preamps,eqs,compressors of a 48 channel mackie,carvin,behringer either one but goes back to the recorders "inserts return" so during playback i can run all my 48 tracks through a 48 channel analog mixer and come back to the DAW or digital recorder???

What does it mean when a mixing console has 14 busses VS 8 or 4 busses?

How can i hook up TWO Behringer MX9000 together what kind of mixer would i need please because each mixing board woud use monitor outputs stereo 2 tracks ? so the mixer would have to have inputs for monitor outputs and mix 4 four monitor ouputs from 2 different mixing consoles to make up 96 mixing channels

[Ironklad Audio]

that's a whooooooooooole lot question asking...

anyways, the only way to do automation from an analog console is to listen to the songs and determine what changes to make and when...then write down EXACTLY what they are.

ex. 1:35, drums -2.1db
2:10 vocals -6db@100hz
an on and on and on

then you hit record on the 2-track, and ride your faders and eq's and whatever else according to your notes. the resulting 2-track recording will reflect the changes you made.

[Elton Bear]

Alternatively, set two channels as your your DAW stereo out + do it all on the computer, obviously if you're set on analogue it's your choice, but that's what I do - I'm also looking at getting a control surface

[xstatic]

This one is simple. Trace the boards you listed for an SSL that is fitted with automation. Or you could see if you can retrofit Uptown Automation in them.

As far as the busses things goes... 14 busses means that the console has 14 busses, 4 means 4, 8 means 8.

As far as combining consoles.... You can not truly combine consoles unless you add an external matrix mixer also or get consoles with some sort of serial link options.

[SonicAlbert]

Well, you can combine mixers by summing the aux sends, the busses, and the masters if you need to. I've done this many times. At that point the mixers basically can be used as one. One unit that is designed to do just this is the Mackie MixerMixer. Now out of production, it can be found on eBay. You'd probably need two or three of them though, enough to sum all the aux sends and busses. How many you need depends on how many aux and busses you have.

Since the original posters is apparently not using a DAW, the suggestion of doing the automation in the computer is not going to work for him.

However, that *is* the best way to do automation on an analog board. You simply draw in or record the automation moves in the DAW and then it doesn't matter what mixer you are using.

If you really want automation and it is a busy mix, you might want to consider transferring the tracks to a DAW and doing the automation there.

[RAK]

You need a digitally controlled analog console.
Nice one Walters.

[walters]

Thanks guys for the help

Get a digitally controlled analog console? i can't to much money

14 busses means that the console has 14 busses, 4 means 4, 8 means 8

Yes but what is 14 busses i don't get it 14 or 30 busses is not going to give me more tracks,aux channels or inserts so what does more busses mean or do ?

Whats the difference between a Buss Vs a insert,direct out,aux channel?

I thought if u have 48 tracks going to a 8 buss mixing or a 4 buss mixing console it has to smash or squash 48 audio tracks onto 8 buss lines so its a generation loss but 14 busses is still a big difference to 48 audio tracks running through the boards

Why don't mixing console have a 14 buss output or Bussing outputs? because direct outputs is different than bussing outputs because bussing outputs are after the master module circuit or subgroups?

[Robert D]

What degree of automation do you need? Faders? Mutes and Faders? More?

[walters]

flying Panning movements, aux sends fading up and down, automating Mutes
and Fader movements up and down

Since im using a analog mixing console 48 tracks going to a 2 track recorder
i can't get all the Flying panning movements and aux sends fading up and down , muting the tracks, fading up and down with only 2 hands its not going to happen

[SonicAlbert]

You may need a digital mixer for that, send it midi continuous controllers to make all that stuff happen. Or have a buddy or two over and practice the automation moves with them, then lay in a recording. This is what we used to do in the old days. Sometimes everyone in the room would have their own faders they were responsible for, and the engineer would kind of conduct everyone through it.

There's no "generational loss" when using busses. It's the same generation, the first generation. Generational loss is a term from the days of analog tape, where there was indeed loss for every copy made. So in those days you made copies or bounced tracks only when you absolutely had to.

One of the purposes of busses is to apply signal processing to groups of tracks at one time. Like eq or compression. So for example you'd put your bass and drums to the same stereo buss. Vocals would go to a different buss. Busses are assigned and then returned to the board with their own inputs, which then are summed with the master buss.

Any signal that you don't feel needs the extra processing can simply be assigned to the master buss from the channel strip.

More busses means you can apply more signal processing to either the same signals or split more tracks out to their own busses, or you can double buss or triple buss, applying different processing to each buss. So the more busses you have the more tricks you have available to play with.

[Robert D]

Originally Posted by walters

flying Panning movements, aux sends fading up and down, automating Mutes
and Fader movements up and down

Since im using a analog mixing console 48 tracks going to a 2 track recorder
i can't get all the Flying panning movements and aux sends fading up and down , muting the tracks, fading up and down with only 2 hands its not going to happen

That makes it pretty difficult to do without spending a lot of money. There were some affordable VCA based fader and mute automation packages back before digital went mainstream, but beyond that you get into real money.

[xstatic]

Given the list of consoles from the first post, you are ass out as far as automation options goes. The only automation available for those consoles are aftermarket automation packages such as the Mackie Ultra Mix automation package (which has not been made for some time) which utilizes the inserts for volume and pseudo mute type automation. If you also want panning and aux send automation you are certainly looking at either a digital desk, or a hybrid of sorts (SSL, Neve, Harrison, Euphonix etc...). Technically, you could gut a cheaper console and install an additional power supply segment, motorized faders and pots, and internal computer for control etc... and make one of those cheapy consoles do all of the automation, but now your cost is just about back there with the SSL's and API's.

[walters]

Thanks alot guys for the help

More busses means you can apply more signal processing to either the same signals

But the console only has 2 or 6 aux tracks so if u have 14 busses and only 6 aux channels sends and returns that doesn't make any sense to me

or split more tracks out to their own busses

But the Busses don't have their own sends and returns so how can u put a signal processor on each track using the inserts on each track channel but why even split them to different busses what is it going to do different?
That 14 tracks are on 14 diffferent busses?

or you can double buss or triple buss, applying different processing to each buss.

What is double buss or triple buss? do u mean combining two or 3 tracks onto one buss line using one signal processor its like grouping tracks together but see its limited then this bussing idea is more like combing and grouping tracks using one signal processor to me and you can only really use inserts because the aux channels are only 4 to 6 and some consoles have 8 aux channels but they are already grouped so the bussing idea is grouping tracks to ONE insert signal processor to me right?


busses is to apply signal processing to groups of tracks at one time

Aux tracks channel are already grouped pretty much so i guess this applys only to insert channels signal processing


Busses are assigned and then returned to the board with their own inputs, which then are summed with the master buss.

Busses:
1.) Insert Busses
2.) Aux Busses
3.) Pre Fader Busses
4.) Post Fader Busses

What other busses is their?

[Dogbreath]

yes.

[SonicAlbert]

Okay, you got the part right when you said "his bussing idea is more like combing and grouping tracks using one signal processor to me". But then when you went on to the part about inserts you kind of drifted off. I think you need to be sure you understand the difference between inserts and busses.

Inserts are a send/return loop for *each channel individually*. This is not something you assign channels to, they either have an insert or they don't.

A buss is a channel that you can assign other channels to. Typically, any channel strip on a mixer can be assigned to any of the busses.

An aux is a feed off a channel that you can send to an output on the mixer to an external fx box, and then return the signal to an aux return. The aux return feeds into the master buss of the mixer.

Double bussing is where you assign one channel to two different busses. For example, you might want to assign channel one to a compressor with heavy compression, and then also layer that same channel one with less compression or no compression, mixing the two. This is double bussing.

[walters]

Thanks alot SonicAlbert for clear this up for me ok i thought i know what busses were just need to make it clear

Does your mixing console have 1-14 bussing inputs and ouputs/sends and returns for each buss line? so u can put a different signal processor on it ?

Most engineers put a compressor in series or in parallel on the main bussing lines on all the 14 bussing lines to compress all of them right?

I mostly use bussing to copy or split my track#1 to track#2 and track#3 to do layer effects its great for that too

[Robert D]

Walters,
What are you smoking, and why aren't you sharing?

Busses are just like....busses. They are for carrying a bunch of people in one vehicle, or in this case, a bunch of channels on one buss. A typical 8 buss board will have the 8 assignment busses, a pair of stereo busses, a half dozen aux busses, a pair of solo busses, and a pair of mix busses. These busses span from left to right across the board, and depending on the board, will give you a bunch of possibilities on how to use them.
Go here http://www.mackie.com/products/8Bus/pdf/8Bus_OM.pdf, and then go to page 54, and study the Mackie 8 Buss block diagram. All will be revealed.

[walters]

Using a Analog mxing console (without automation)

DAW with 48 or 24 outputs for Playback i use the 48 track "INSERTS" sends to go to the analog mixing console so its 48 track insert sends going to 48 inputs on the analog mixing console. The analog mixing console mixes the 48 tracks brings them back out of the analog mixing console back to the "Inserts returns" on the DAW harddisk recorded back to the virtual mixing DAW to do automation like flying panning,digital compressors,aux send automation,flying faders

But im using the 48 direct outputs on each console channel they are not getting summed at the master summing stage because they master summing stage only have 2 or 4 or 8 outputs from it being summed together this is a problem so the virtual DAW mixer has to summ the 48 track together

[walters]

Buss= a bunch of channels on one buss line

This is a problem because its not "summing" the tracks together
this could change the sonic timbre characterists because its like the 405 freeway its bottlenecking the audio "before" the master summing amp with resistors summing stage on the master fader circuit

8 tracks of audio on one buss line going to one signal dynamic processsor or a reverb its serial not parallel the old reverb chamber units had 8 or 10 inputs and had a summing console inside or external it was parallel not series so all the 8 tracks had 8 busslines going to a summing circuit with resistors and then to a reverb or compressor signal band if u put all the 8 track on the one buss lines its not summing them together u know what i mean?

[SonicAlbert]

Any track assigned to a buss is summed with any other track that is assigned to that same buss. It's not a bottleneck, it's within the capabilites of the board.

The parallel compression I'm talking about is different than what you are saying about serial versus parallel effects. "Parallel" being the same word but used to mean something a little different in this case. So yes, compression and eq is typically a "serial" effect, and reverb and delay are considered "parallel" effects. But parallel compression refers to assigning a signal to two busses and compressing one but not the other. The identical signals are running parallel to each other but being processed differently.

This is very important for getting certain kinds of sounds. Like running the drum buss parallel and squashing one of the busses hard and mixing it back in under the original track. Makes for a huge sound.

The way I mix now is using busses. Everything is assigned a buss and then processed or not on that buss. The aux sends to the fx are obviously done from the channel strips before bussing. But the compression, eq, and some other fx are done on the busses.

[RideTheCrash]

Wow.

walters obviously looks up some of this stuff and looks like he asks a question then answers it...with a question. If the guy can't tell the difference between a buss and an insert, he obviously doesn't know about circuity and resistors in a mixer. Pretty funny, but painfully confusing to follow.

[walters]

Thanks alot SonicAlbert

If a track is not on a buss number channel then its bypass and goes straight to the channel strips buss lines its not on a group/bussing line right?

What is Before bussing lines and What is after bussing lines?
How do u put effects "before" bussing/group line and how do u put effects "After" bussing/group lines?

the compression, eq, and some other fx are done on the busses

So sonic when u use the compression,eq,fx u don't use Aux or inserts right
do u use the Bussing output sends and returns jacks?

Because exampe track#1 if u put a compressor on the insert and fx delay on the Aux and put track#1 on buss#1 and track#2 on buss#1 and track#3 on buss#1 then the busses are going to get summed or routed to the insert compress and Aux fx delay is that how the buss routing works?

Is there a global buss which u can put compresson on all the busses even the channel strip buss lines the tracks that are not on group/busses?

[walters]

My Mixer console only has 8 busses how do i get 14 or 30 busses? i would like to extend my busses what can i do to get more busses?

Bussing tech.

1.) Merging alot of tracks together onto one buss channel line
2.) Y cord bussing
3.) Daisy chain bussing
4.) Channel jumping bussing
5.) Double or triple bussing
6.) Layering bussing
7.) Splitting bussing
8.) Bleeding bussing

The master group has group inserts for #1 -8 bussing lines
i need more like 30 or 60 buss lines how can i extend them more?
you can put effect processors on the master group inserts buss lines from buss#1-8

Buss#1= hard Compression
Buss#2= Soft Compression
Buss#3=phaser
Buss#4=Flanger
Buss#5=Delay
Buss#6=chorus
Buss#7=tremolo
Buss#8=Dry signal "bleeding track"

Aux#1= EMT reverb this is for all the tracks 1-48tracks

So if u put track#1 on all 1-6 busses then it Layers all the effects
from 1-6 effects
put track#2 just buss#2 its only going to have soft compression
put track#3 on buss#5 its only going to have delay
put track#4 on buss#5,buss#6,buss#1 its going to have delay,chorus and hard compression

Track#5 on buss#1,Buss#4,buss#7,buss#8
This will have hard compression,flanger,tremolo, bleeding from another track with it.

Track#6 on buss#8 this track#6 will bleed into track#5's effects with track#5 mixing them together "bleed submixing"

[walters]

Bussing Tech
#10.) Flipping the channels L and R to R to L

How do u FLIP the channels from Left to right to right to left with bussing?

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Ironklad Audio

that's a whooooooooooole lot question asking...

anyways, the only way to do automation from an analog console is to listen to the songs and determine what changes to make and when...then write down EXACTLY what they are.

ex. 1:35, drums -2.1db
2:10 vocals -6db@100hz
an on and on and on

then you hit record on the 2-track, and ride your faders and eq's and whatever else according to your notes. the resulting 2-track recording will reflect the changes you made.

That isnt automation Thats manualation.
Automation is when the mixer or mixing software does the changes atuaomatically.

I would sugest buying a programme like Cubase. Relativelty cheap compared to Pro Tools, but still a really good programme. Very easy to automate.

Eck