Mixing gone wrong

[noahrex]

Hey, i've got a few good songs now on my recoding unit (Boss BR-8). They sound great on headphones, but once i try and convert it to my computer using an input jack it sounds low quality. I hit record on Ntrack, then press play on my recorder. Then convert the wav file to mp3 using iTunes. I dont know a whole lot about mixing, so i'm hoping i could find a few suggestions on here. Thanks

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

Hey, i've got a few good songs now on my recoding unit (Boss BR-8). They sound great on headphones, but once i try and convert it to my computer using an input jack it sounds low quality. I hit record on Ntrack, then press play on my recorder. Then convert the wav file to mp3 using iTunes. I dont know a whole lot about mixing, so i'm hoping i could find a few suggestions on here. Thanks

How specifically are you connecting the Boss to the computer?
What bit rate are you encoding your MP3s? Do you still feel it sounds bad when listening to the WAV files?
How are you monitoring off the computer, with the same headphones or something different?
Are you transfering to computer at the same sample rate/bit depth you originally tracked at?
Can you describe more specifically what you mean by "low quality"?

[noahrex]

Boss to computer connection: Line out/Line in

Bit rate: I'm not sure how to adjust the bit rate. on the BR-8, i believe it records at 24, but N-track (sample version) only allows 16. Once i convert the wav to mp3, i lose a lot of sound volume.

Computer Monitoring: I listen to what sounds are coming through the computer speakers. The headphones gave a false perception

Sample rate: i'm not sure how to correct this, is there a better program to use. on the computer, I record everything on to one track.

Low Quality: Basically it just doesn't sound "mastered". it isn't terrible, but the volume is off, and there is not much of a great clear sound.

Thanks for your response

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

Boss to computer connection: Line out/Line in

Bit rate: I'm not sure how to adjust the bit rate. on the BR-8, i believe it records at 24, but N-track (sample version) only allows 16. Once i convert the wav to mp3, i lose a lot of sound volume.

Computer Monitoring: I listen to what sounds are coming through the computer speakers. The headphones gave a false perception

Sample rate: i'm not sure how to correct this, is there a better program to use. on the computer, I record everything on to one track.

Low Quality: Basically it just doesn't sound "mastered". it isn't terrible, but the volume is off, and there is not much of a great clear sound.

Thanks for your response

So you're using a Y-cable to connect the L/R Outputs of the Boss to the stereo line in on your computer? (Stereo RCA Male -> Stereo 1/8" Male)

I was looking at the specs on the Boss, and it seems that it only records at 44.1 kHz sample rate, so make sure your session is at 44.1 kHz on your computer. So on your computer you'd be recording at 44.1/16 bit, which is what a CD runs at, so at that point you could burn a CD and see what it sounds like also.

At that point listen to what you have, and see if it sounds okay, or if it is already sounding off. Are you getting enough level in the software when you track from the Boss to the computer?

On the computer, you say you only record to 1 track? Is this a stereo track? Or are you just recording everything to mono?

Have you listened to the Boss via monitors, or just headphones? If you're listening to the computer sound on monitors, then the Boss comparison should also be on monitors.

If it sounds okay as a WAV, but not as an MP3, then there's probably an issue with the way you're encoding the MP3. Any idea what bit rate you're encoding to?

[legionserial]

If you mix on headphones you could run into problems. Your ears are incased in little boxes (ie the cans) so its not really a true representation of what it sounds like in a room.

Also the shape of everyones ears is pretty unique. So basically you will be mixing to fit the exact needs of your specific ears, being that the sound is being pummelled straight into them. And this won't translate too well. Pretty much if you mix in headphones, and then go to see how it translates on a completely other system, it will be dead off.

I did a few headphone mixes on some of my stuff ages ago and in every case, there was not enough low end. Headphones tend to boost lows a bit. They tend to color the sound you are hearing an awful lot, and kind of make it prettier. Which is great if you are just listening to music, but you don't want it to be made pretty, you want it to sound as it is.

The way I see it, if music is to played on loudspeakers, then it needs to be mixed on loudspeakers. If your mix sounds good on a good set of speakers, then you can guarantee it will sound good through headphones also.

Also spending hours on end listening through headphones all the time will cock your ears right up.

I generally use headphones for like checking for bleed, noise, crackles and any imperfections in the audio that might need fixing. They are good for precise listening in the sense that you can pick stuff out easier, but they won't really help too much in mixing IMHO.

Of course this may not be related to the problem you are having, and it may indeed be a technical thing, but I though I'd throw it on the table

[noahrex]

Yes i'm using a Y-cable for connection.

The session on my computer is at 44.1kHz, but the computer program will only record at 16bit. I think it's because i only have the sample version of the program. I have the Computer recording program (n-track) set up as a stereo recording through one track. So i hit play from the BR-8, and record it on one track through n-track. I then take that wave file (about 40mb)and put it into iTunes and convert it into mp3 (about 5mb).

When the song is playing from the BR-8, the sound also comes through the speakers. I have the input volume level on my computer pretty high, but the sound is still pretty low. I dont want to turn up the sound to far on the BR-8 because i feel it may cause some distortion...maybe i'm wrong.

I just looked at the bit rate of the songs of mine on itunes and they are between 1400-2100kbps as a .wave file and 192kbps at .mp3 level.


Does the EQ setting make a difference? Is the difference in 24bit on the BOSS and 16 bit on the computer significant? I'm at a loss.

[RAK]

So I'm just trying to trace where the quality goes down the tube. Here are the stages as I see it

Playback from Boss? (Then bounced from Boss to Ntrack)
Playback in NTrack? (Then exported from NTrack to WAV file, do you need to set any parameters here?)
WAV file? (Are you playing back the WAV file in iTunes, NTrack, or something else?)
MP3 file? (You are using iTunes to convert to MP3, correct?)

At what point does it go from sounding okay, to sounding bad.

[noahrex]

OK so i just went through each part of the process and here's what i came up with. The song loses quality when it is transfered from the BR-8 to N-track. At both file types the song quality is not terriblt, but whenever the vocal volumes are at high levels....it gets extremely staticy. (i took both the wav and mp3 and put them on my ipod and played them in my car). The song's overall volume was pretty normal to other songs. It's just when the vocal volume levels are at a high point in the song....it gets staticy. I guess my overal concern along with this is...creating that "studio" sound, like it could be heard on the radio. i think i've heard these songs so many times, i've lost sight of their overal quality compared to the studio/radio/store bought CD.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'd bet that it's a matter of gain staging from the Boss to N-Track. Even if you're outputing an average of 0VU out of the Boss, your sound card is going to convert that to somewhere in the mid negative teens dBFS going into N-Track. If you have N-Track set to untity gain (no volume boot or cut when recording), your levels in N-Track are probably going to be peaking somehwere between -6dBFS and -12dBFS (give or take) with an RMS (average) volume level somehwere between -15 and -20dBFS RMS.

This is normal. But if you're expecting that to sound like the levels of a commercial CD or commercial MP3, you are indeed going to be disappointed at the low volume you have (expecially if you're into metal-ish styles of music.)

You need to take that mixdown recording and apply some pre-mastering to it. At minimum, some volume boost via normalization. More likely a little bit of compression (via compressor plug) to tighten up the dynamic range followed by some makeup volume boost. If you listen to the headbangers on this board, you'll want to squish the crap out of the dynamics by throwing your mix against a hard limiter plug (an extreme form of compression) to bring you mix to ear-bleedling levels. I wouldn't recommend that last part just yet...learn to walk first before you try to run into that brick wall .

I'd also recommend recording your mix into Ntrack as two mono files/tracks instead of a single stereo file/track. This can give you a bit more flexibility with the premastering, being able to treat left and right channels differently if desired. Then you can save the final mixdown as a single stereo file before you convert to MP3.

G.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by noahrex

The song's overall volume was pretty normal to other songs. It's just when the vocal volume levels are at a high point in the song....it gets staticy.

Let be back up from my last post a bit. That sounds almost as if your volume going into N-Track may be too hot, not too low, that perhaps you're clipping on the loud parts of the vocal.

G.

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

OK so i just went through each part of the process and here's what i came up with. The song loses quality when it is transfered from the BR-8 to N-track. At both file types the song quality is not terriblt, but whenever the vocal volumes are at high levels....it gets extremely staticy. (i took both the wav and mp3 and put them on my ipod and played them in my car). The song's overall volume was pretty normal to other songs. It's just when the vocal volume levels are at a high point in the song....it gets staticy. I guess my overal concern along with this is...creating that "studio" sound, like it could be heard on the radio. i think i've heard these songs so many times, i've lost sight of their overal quality compared to the studio/radio/store bought CD.

It's good you isolated the problem. So you definetly don't experience this vocal static when just playing back from the Boss correct?

When you're recording to N-Track do you notice any clipping? Maybe you're recording too hot into the computer and it's clipping during the loud sections.

Do you hear the static when you're actually recording into N-Track?

I suppose it could also be a bad Y-Cable, or something funny with the computer sound card. Maybe the jack is just dirty?

[noahrex]

with regards to n-track. i usually dont do a whole lot of button pushing or anything with the program. so please, if you are familiar with the program, kinda guide me through what i should look for and play with to help with the problem. How can i eliminate the clipping using n-track. also...is there any way to find some serial numbers to punch into ntrack so i can get the full version? thanks

[RAK]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Let be back up from my last post a bit. That sounds almost as if your volume going into N-Track may be too hot, not too low, that perhaps you're clipping on the loud parts of the vocal.

G.

Guess you slipped that in while I was writing my reply above.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by noahrex

also...is there any way to find some serial numbers to punch into ntrack so i can get the full version? thanks

Pay for it . This is not a pirate-friendly board.

You might want to look up a program called Audacity. It's open-source freeware that does basically everything within your needs that N-track does.

G.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by RAK

Guess you slipped that in while I was writing my reply above.

heh hehe, that's the problem with using these board in real-time, by the time I finished my first post it was already obsolete. :P

G.

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

with regards to n-track. i usually dont do a whole lot of button pushing or anything with the program. so please, if you are familiar with the program, kinda guide me through what i should look for and play with to help with the problem. How can i eliminate the clipping using n-track. also...is there any way to find some serial numbers to punch into ntrack so i can get the full version? thanks

Well I don't know anything about N-Track, but I'm assuming it has a level meter on every track. If you see if go into the Red, then it is clipping. When you do your next bounce, watch the meter and see what happens.

Also, when you are doing the bounce from Boss to N-Track, are you monitoring from the Boss or N-Track?

[noahrex]

yeah the piracy question was a bad one....please disregard and dont hold it against me.

While recording from BOSS to N-track i am monitoring. While i'm monitoring I never hear any "clipping" sounds, but i do notice the meter going up into the red, so i think you are accurate on your claim. So what should i look to adjust to eliminate the clipping? Does the 24 bit of the BOSS and 16 bit of the N-Track cause any problems with sound? I'm not sure what those numbers represent exactly? Is it similar to picture resolution?

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

yeah the piracy question was a bad one....please disregard and dont hold it against me.

While recording from BOSS to N-track i am monitoring. While i'm monitoring I never hear any "clipping" sounds, but i do notice the meter going up into the red, so i think you are accurate on your claim. So what should i look to adjust to eliminate the clipping? Does the 24 bit of the BOSS and 16 bit of the N-Track cause any problems with sound? I'm not sure what those numbers represent exactly? Is it similar to picture resolution?

So it sounds like you're monitoring back from the Boss, since you're not hearing the clipping. That is just fine to monitor that way.

All you need to do (most likely) is to turn down your record level in N-Track, or you could turn down the master fader on the Boss to reduce the level that way.

Bit Depth is the digital audio equivalent of amplitude (volume). This is much easier to explain with a picture, but picture a sine wave, and taking points along that wave to recreate a representative square wave. The more points along the wave you take, the more accurate the representation. That sort of, in a very basic way, describes bit depth. a 24 bit file has more reference points than a 16 bit file. Bit Depth also relates to dynamic range. For example the dynamic range of a 16 bit file is roughly 90 dB. Dynamic range of a 24 bit file is roughly 138 dB. Incidently, Dynamic range of a cassette tape is roughly 60 dB.

The Boss has 24 bit A/D/A converters, but I'm not actually sure if it's recording at 24 bit. The tech specs didn't really say, but since it only records at 44.1 kHz sample rate, maybe it only records to 16 bit also. I didn't see where it specified that. Either way it doesn't seem to be something you have control over, so don't worry about it.

[noahrex]

Thank you all for your help. i have one more question.

I have done some fine turing to process of recording, which did some enhancements to the quality (volume, no clipping). but it seems that the song just feels a bit weak. What i mean is this....when i listen to another song (studio recorded/CD quality) it just has a sense of "fullness", it sounds full and rich and dynamic, while mine is slightly lacking that quality. What can i do to change that. Does it have to do with the 1 track stereo recording? I'm just not sure how to take a 2 track mix down (L and R) and turn them into one file. Please, if you can, help explain this to me. thanks again

[RAK]

Originally Posted by noahrex

Thank you all for your help. i have one more question.

I have done some fine turing to process of recording, which did some enhancements to the quality (volume, no clipping). but it seems that the song just feels a bit weak. What i mean is this....when i listen to another song (studio recorded/CD quality) it just has a sense of "fullness", it sounds full and rich and dynamic, while mine is slightly lacking that quality. What can i do to change that. Does it have to do with the 1 track stereo recording? I'm just not sure how to take a 2 track mix down (L and R) and turn them into one file. Please, if you can, help explain this to me. thanks again

Well to jump down to the technical question at the end, if you have two mono tracks, you should be able to export those two tracks to a single stereo file. Not knowing N-Track, I don't know exactly how that works, but you should be able to do it. Should be similar to however you export your stereo track to WAV.

However, this isn't going to address the fullness issue. There are a lot of factors beginning with the arrangement of the music and the musicians themselves. It may have nothing to do with the mixing itself. Without hearing things, I don't think I could say "this is what you do to make it sound more full" But like I said, start with the arrangements.

[dirtythermos]

If you are going line-out of the BOSS into line-in of your soundcard, you are going digital->analog->digital. If that is the case:

1) it won't matter what sampling rate / bit depth you're using on the BOSS because it's going to analog when it leaves the BOSS
2) if the D/A converter on the BOSS or the A/D converter on your soundcard (Is it a sound blaster?) is crap, then it will sound like crap

If you have a way to go digital to the PC, I would recommend that. Even if you have to invest in a solution, you're killing your sound to go through two sets of (cheap) converters.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

If you listen to the headbangers on this board, you'll want to squish the crap out of the dynamics by throwing your mix against a hard limiter plug (an extreme form of compression) to bring you mix to ear-bleedling levels..

Hell no. I work so hard on my metal mixes (mainly because I suck...or something) I ain't about to fuck them up by limiting the shit out of 'em. I give it a tiny bit of a boost, but if I'm going to do a 'percieved volume comparison' to see if its 'loud enough' then I'll compare it to something from like 20 years ago. I mean, those are the records I love anyway. I've never had a problem using the volume control on my hifi. Especially with todays technology of spangly remote control-ma-jiggys.

I like to listen to music. Study it. Analyse it. Take in all the tones and different sounds. You can't do that so clearly when they ran it through a limiter....

Don't do it. Its satan in disguise....which fits in with the whole stereotypical metal thing I suppose......

Pardon my irrelevance. Carry on.... .....

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by legionserial

Hell no. I work so hard on my metal mixes (mainly because I suck...or something) I ain't about to fuck them up by limiting the shit out of 'em.

Ahhhh, that's why I like you, legion. Even if you do come an RCH away from quoting me out of context in your sig line (), you have a head on your shoulders, ears on your head, and brains inside, and you use them all.

Man, does it sound good to hear a metallurgist who isn't all about RMS. Thank you!

G.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Ahhhh, that's why I like you, legion. Even if you do come an RCH away from quoting me out of context in your sig line (), you have a head on your shoulders, ears on your head, and brains inside, and you use them all.

Man, does it sound good to hear a metallurgist who isn't all about RMS. Thank you!

G.

I understand the context of the quote in my signature, even if no one else does. I just ommitted the bit about how it had nothing to do with audio engineering...

It wasn't long ago I knew nothing about recording music. (just over a year ago I think?)I knew how to work a guitar, an amp, and a computer. All to a fairly reasonable level I guess. And ironicly if I wasn't googling why my mixes weren't loud enough, I would have never have stumbled onto somewhere where people would be handing down knowledge for free. (The result being that I learned what a limiter was, downloaded one, smashed the crap out of one of my tunes, and hated the sound of it.) I made some pretty fucking stupid posts when I first found this site, but eventually I learned stuff...

As far as my anti smashing-the crap-out-your-music stance goes...

See, ever since I was little I have this fixation on the guitar, and how it sounds, so I listened to music intently. I started hearing all the other sounds, and became fixated on them too. There were times when I would tell people in the room to "shut the hell up and listen to this". People talking when I'm listening to good music annoys the crap out of me. Its not background music to me. It more like reading a book. I want to concentrate....

Dynamics have always been something that fascinated me. A classical piece that would meander along quietly, and then suddenly jolt you with a loud burst. I liked Nirvana a lot in my early teens because of their use of dynamics. To have something going quietly and suddenly burst out with rage, like the calm before the storm. I'm sure had their stuff ran through a brickwall to some degree. But it was more tolerable when they weren't completely killing the tune.

Its only been in the last few years I have noticed the way you'd have, say, a heavily distorted powerful guitar riff with the drums booming away, and suddenly it would go into the quiet calm bit. But it was like "wait, everything is still the same volume. It doesn't make any sense". It just sounded fucked up to me. Like, I can deal with the heavy bits being pummelled into my brain. Thats what they are for. But the "quiet" bits, the change in timbre I guess. They aren't meant to do that. Its sposed to be, like....exhaling, I guess, after an intense moment. A release. It just doesn't seem to happen anymore.

I don't see the point in trying to make and record all these sounds if you are just going to mush them up afterwards. I got pissed off the other day because I was listening to a CD, and I noticed forthe first time how when the tune kicked in, it almost felt like my speakers were fucked. I actually checked my whole setup to make sure something wasn't turned up stupidly loud somewhere. I'm going to notice that every time I listen to it now. I just don't see the point in it. If everything was at a lower perceptive volume, then people wouldn't need to do it.

Anyway at the risk of writing a whole book (and hijacking the thread), I'll shut up now. I could talk about music forever....

[Alexbt]

Don't many of these digital recorders have USB connections or removable flash media that you can connect to your computer. That's the best possible route to go.