Minimalist Mic Setup with Triggered BassDrum?

[darkecho]

I was reading the old thread on using two overheads to get a "phat sound" but In my particular situation, my drummer has triggers and he does the best he can to mute the bass drum.. This effectively takes the bass drum out of the equation, as far as phase cancellation and miking that is...

so my question is, what would you guys do to get the best sound out of say two over heads and a couple of 57s with a triggered set?

I was thinking of using the same method that tubedude used but not measure from the bassdrum.

[Ironklad Audio]

throw a 57 above and below the snare, then set up the OH's however you see fit

[guhlenn]

and a sm 57 on hi-hatt.

[darkecho]

will the OHs pickup the toms good enough?

and a 57 on the highhat??

I have a delta 44, so I will have the two OHs going into my preamp and then into the delta taking up 2 of the 4 spots, then a snare track would get third and then the triggered bassdrum would get 1..

so i would have to sum anything else with one of those signals...

unless i recorded the OHs into one signal as stereo or something?

[guhlenn]

stereo is two track. the 4-track limitation makes it sdman easy; triggered kick, 2xOH and sm57 on snare., you dontl; have capacity for more

a 'triggered' set to me suggests triggered toms. but i was wrong. the OH will pick uo toms, but for my taste to little. But placement can fix that. I think. Just experiment, what's there to lose?

[darkecho]

well, since you ask... there is LOTS of time to lose, some electricity... maybe some fingers... friends... if you are in the building, which is the target of an asteroid, you may lose your life, and all of your equiptment.. so i guess there is lots to lose, but probably nothing but time....


eventually my drummer wants to get triggered toms, which would be wonderful.

hell, maybe he should just get an electric drumset......

wouldnt that be a joy to "record"

[darkecho]

also, i have a mixer available...

but i would have to combine signals... what would be best to combine the toms with? snare? or bassdrum? cause i am using my 2 channel BG for the condensors (i figure that they can take more advantage of the $$$ preamp)

the sm57 will go through a behringer mixer, and the bass drum trigger would just output to my delta, with no middle man (drum brains do not need to be preamped, right?)

[darkecho]

and if you wanted to get that placement ability for the toms, you'd need to mic each one seperately so you could pan them around to make it sound like they go across the board right? so I think maybe I will just leave the toms in the OH recording...


should the OHs be recorded in stereo? or as two mono signals (one signal for each mic) and then pan them seperately to taste?

[Ironklad Audio]

should the OHs be recorded in stereo? or as two mono signals (one signal for each mic) and then pan them seperately to taste?

two mono signals combined into a L/R IS stereo!

but yea, throw 2 mics up for the OH's, play around with their placement to get the spread of cymbals and the tom hits to sound like you want them to...or at least as close as possible

[darkecho]

well, i have the option of recording into an actual STEREO channel, where the program combines the two into a single stereo track. or i can record to two seperate tracks and adjust volume and pan of each of the two signals independantly...

[guitarboi89]

seperate channels so u can control how wide the overheads are
im actually testing out the same idea cause i cant afford a kick mic

[guhlenn]

stereo is the same as two mono channels, but stereo has some limitations while mixing. I would definately put the snare trough the BG, as that will be thloudest in the mix. OH's usually are softer anyway. What you could do (i;v done this) is mic the toms seperately, pan the channels, and then combine em with your overheads. You need to be REALLY sure your levels are ok and that you liek the sound/panning and stuff, but that could work. otherwise, just use the OH's and place your mics so they pick up more tom then cymbal. Hell, who likes cymbals anyway? well drummers do. but then, they are drummers.

[darkecho]

so you are saying that I shoul put both of the OH into the behringer and then into two seperate tracks, then put the snare through the BG? then i am wasting a BG input!!!

why not have the two OHs into the BG and the snare through the mixer?

[guhlenn]

Yup, i know. the reason for this is simple. Take your favorite cd, and listen to it. somewhere in the back you'll find you hear some cymbals. and way up front you'll find the snare. The snare will eb heard in detail, the OH's not. so your money preamp (heh) will be heard.

But try both, but then i wouldn;t sum the signals with the berry, just run the OH's through the BG and sum snare and toms through the berry.

and report back ofcourse

[darkecho]

ok. so now my question is, where do the toms need to be in the mix? up front and loud with the snare? or back with the cymbals?


the answer to this will finish my decision, if the toms need to be up front and loud, then I will have the toms and snare go to the BG and into the Delta44 as seperate tracks, the Bass drum triggers get their own input, leaving one input for the OHs, (which means i will have to combine them in the mixer as one track so i would lose the ability to adjust the volume of either side or to pan them around..)

if the toms can be quiet, I will just let the OHs pick them up, and each OH mic wil have its own track out of the mixer, the snare will go through the BG into an input and the BD will get one.

I am thinking maybe I will just leave the toms unmiked... just for simplicity sake...

[guhlenn]

you are joking right?

that's like the little bit of artisitic freedom you have, and imho the joy of mixing. I would mic and mix at the spot i guess. i like my toms loud and in stereo, and the OH soft and in stereo. mono drums don;t work for me. or my talent needs them to be in stereo

[darkecho]

well the ohs will be in stereo... the snare will be put slightly off center, but for simplicity's sake, (and because I am doing this particular recording as a favor to a friends band) so I sort of want to just produce something useable (myspace and handout CD demos). I dont want to go nuts on it because i dont want to spend that much time

so I think I will just adjust the mics to pick up more of the toms and then the OHs will have the toms and cymbals in stereo...

then i can take those two signals and pan them however wide or narrow i want them. but the toms and cymbals will be stereo

then il take your advice and put the snare through the $$preamp.

I will report back, this will take place probably monday of next week


plus, the less mics i have to worry about, the less problems i will have with phase cancellation.

[TragikRemix]

here's what a start with right off the bat when it comes to a drum mix-

-Pan OH's All the Way left and right.
-Lower OH fader down halfway.
-Pan Snare 15-left
-EQ kick and snare, taking out 500hz completely.

Thats my starting point. where i finish, i'll never know. adjust to taste after that. compression etc, more fun here and there.

not saying that will work for you! It DOESNT work for me, but i think of it as a nice, constant starting point, and it's what i always start at.

geez. first you want to know how to setup the mics, now you want to know how to mix them too!....

[darkecho]

im a data sponge thansk for the responses, they will definately be helpful.. now I just need to get over to the practice space and work on mic placement.

[BigRay]

go to http://www.electrical.com/ and look up Steve Albini's technique..his thinking is that noone ever hears drums from over head on a CD, so why mic them that way? Steve is a genius!

[guhlenn]

do you have a link. searched but can;t find it. interested though... as it is, logical

[darkecho]

indeed it is... how else would you mic them? technically, in this frame of thought, you would want to mic everything from an audience point of view.... so everything should be miked from a signal focal point.

[guhlenn]

binaural recording... it exists, but u wonder why it isn't common practice...

[darkecho]

if you recorded binauraly you would probably be forced to introduce a lot more room noise..

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by TragikRemix

here's what a start with right off the bat when it comes to a drum mix-

-Pan OH's All the Way left and right.
-Lower OH fader down halfway.
-Pan Snare 15-left
-EQ kick and snare, taking out 500hz completely.

Thats my starting point. where i finish, i'll never know. adjust to taste after that. compression etc, more fun here and there.

not saying that will work for you! It DOESNT work for me, but i think of it as a nice, constant starting point, and it's what i always start at.

geez. first you want to know how to setup the mics, now you want to know how to mix them too!....

Why would you pan the snare? It's likely to be the driving force of the track right? You want that right up the middle I would think. Off center snares bother me for some reason.

My starting point for panning is typically representative of the kit and the mics. OH panned all the way usually makes it sound too wide. You don't want mono drums, but you also don't want the drummer playing a kit that's 30 feet wide in the headphones!

Just my little bit of input. Mix however you like, of course.