Guitar Scales for Idiots??

[gvarko]

The idiot in this case is me.. I have played guitar for years and am fairly adept with chords, but when it comes to leads I am lost. I can play some by ear, but I really have no freakin idea what I am doing.

I have bought books, DVD's, online lessons and I still can't get my head around scales. All lessons start out great, then they say shit like you can color the scale with diminished this, or sharp that. At that point I go blank.

Is there 1 essential set of scales I can start with to just get a basic understanding of WTF I am doing?? Please help...

[Marc Miano]

Yep.

Just remember:

Whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.
This might be easier to see:
WWHWWWH

The first note you play is the root of the scale, or the "one" in the scale, the second note is the second, the third is the third...

Thats the pattern for the Major scale, and all the main scales used in western music is built off of that one. Memerize the shape of the pattern on the neck and move it all around the neck.

The other scales are built by starting on each of the other notes. Start on the second note and you get

WHWWWHW = Dorian
HWWWHWW = Phrygian
WWWHWWH = Lydian
WWHWWHW = Mixolydian
WHWWHWW = Natural minor or Aeolian
HWWHWWW = Locrian (very weird sounding I dont know of any songs that use this one)

That should get you started.

Have fun!

[gvarko]

Originally Posted by Marc Miano

Yep.

Just remember:

Whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step.
This might be easier to see:
WWHWWWH

The first note you play is the root of the scale, or the "one" in the scale, the second note is the second, the third is the third...

Thats the pattern for the Major scale, and all the main scales used in western music is built off of that one. Memerize the shape of the pattern on the neck and move it all around the neck.

The other scales are built by starting on each of the other notes. Start on the second note and you get

WHWWWHW = Dorian
HWWWHWW = Phrygian
WWWHWWH = Lydian
WWHWWHW = Mixolydian
WHWWHWW = Natural minor or Aeolian
HWWHWWW = Locrian (very weird sounding I dont know of any songs that use this one)

That should get you started.

Have fun!

Thanks, but it doesn't help me at all. I am really stupid with this for some reason.

WWHWWWH - does this mean 1st fret top string, then 3rd fret, then 4th, then 6th then 8th and so on??

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by gvarko

Thanks, but it doesn't help me at all. I am really stupid with this for some reason.

WWHWWWH - does this mean 1st fret top string, then 3rd fret, then 4th, then 6th then 8th and so on??

You need to decide what key you are playing in.

Lets say you are playing in C using WWHWWWH, the major scale

So you start with C, thats taken as read. Then you have the first W or whole step. This will take to D, then theres another W, so that takes you to E, then a half step, taking you to F (as theres no E#), then a W (G), another W (A), another W (B) and a H (C)

0 W W H W W W H
C D E F G A B C


Another example for WHWWWHW:

0 W H W W W H W
C D D# F G A A# C

I don't know if this explains it or make it more confusing, but I hope it helps.

Edit: Yes its confusing, because it won't let me space it out the way I want it to. Screw it

[dirtythermos]

Ok, back up for a second.

Play this progression: || C | C | F | G ||

Now play this one: || G | G | C | D ||

And this one: || A | A | D | E ||

See how all three have the same feel? That is because they are the same thing, but in different keys. The first one is in the key of C, the 2nd is in G, and the 3rd is in A. Music is organized into keys like this, so when you go to solo you want to be (mostly) in the same key with the music.

Now, like marc said, the major scale is WWHWWWH. That pattern describes the intervals between the notes in the scale. The major scale in the key of C would be

C D E F G A B C

C -> D = whole step (2 frets)
D -> E = whole step
E -> F = half step (1 fret)
F -> G = whole step
etc.

So, go through your book and find the introductory "pattern" for the major scale. That pattern will be movable - meaning you use it in a different position on the neck depending on what key your're in.

Here is one pattern for the major scale

|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|
|---|-x-|---|-x-|-X-|---|

The x's are the notes you can play. If the music is in the key of C, put the capital X on a C and play the notes under the pattern (your pinky will be on the 8th fret of the 6th string). If the music is in A, put the X on an A (pinky on 5th fret of 6th string). etc.

There is a lot more to playing lead than this, but this will get you started.

[dirtythermos]

Originally Posted by legionserial

Another example for WHWWWHW:

W H W W W H W
C D D# F G A A# C

That would be

C D Eb F G A Bb C

[ermghoti]

Check out the free lessons here. Work your way from the beginning, it explains everything in detail, very clearly.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by dirtythermos

That would be

C D Eb F G A Bb C

Same thing. Eb is D#, Bb is A#

[scrubs]

I'm pretty much a scale idiot, too. I bought the Guitar Grimoire books when they first came out and thought I would just go through and master them...ha! It required far too much dedication for me. However, I'll do my best to explain my more simplified method.

For me, playing lead requires some basic knowledge of theory (at least enough to figure out what key the song is in), and knowledge of what actual notes you're playing on the fretboard, but isn't really all that complicated (unless you're dealing with songs that aren't in a standard major/minor key or have frequent key changes).

Let's say we have a song in the key of C major (common chords that work in C major are C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am). The notes of the C major scale are CDEFGAB (no flats, no sharps). As long as you're playing one of those notes, you're in the same key as the song. Your ears will generally tell you if you're playing a note that is not really compatible for the underlying chord (such as a sustained B over a C chord), but you can always just move to the next note and it will probably sound better.

The next step is developing a series of "boxes" or fretboard positions where you can play the notes of the C major scale. So, starting at the nut, you can play the following (hopefully, this will work):

E 0-1-3
B 0-1-3
G 0-2-(4)
D 0-2-3
A 0-2-3
E 0-1-3

If you move up to the 5th fret, the box looks like this:

E 5-7-8
B 5-6-8
G 5-7-(9)
D 5-7-(9)
A 5-7-8
E 5-7-8

If you move up to the 10th fret, the box looks like this:

E 10-12-13
B 10-12-13
G 10-12-(14)
D 10-12-(14)
A 10-12-(14)
E 10-12-13

The bolded notes are the "C's" for reference. Now, I have a couple of other positions that get me between these boxes, but this will hopefully give you the general idea. You can then go about creating some licks in these positions that work for whatever style you happen to be playing.

The simple thing about learning the positions is that you can now transpose them to most songs. C major contains the same notes as A minor, so these positions will work for that key also. If you need to go to D major ( or B minor), just shift everything two frets higher. And so on.

Like I said, this will work for any song that remains in a single standard key (but you can always adjust your reference point if you have a key change).

Anyway, that's the way that I tend to think of lead, particularly when I'm playing improvised stuff. Hope my explanation made sense to someone.

[gvarko]

Holy shit, I think I almost get it now!!!!

Thanks to all for the input, I am going to work on this tonight!!!

[gvarko]

Originally Posted by scrubs

I bought the Guitar Grimoire books when they first came out and thought I would just go through and master them...ha!

Too funny, I did the books and DVD's. I was more confused after than I was before. Not to mention, the dude with the cape was just bizzare...

[dirtythermos]

Originally Posted by legionserial

Same thing. Eb is D#, Bb is A#

They are the same tone, but a C Dorian scale has an Eb, not a D#.

[metalhead28]

You said you are fairly adept at chords. Are you saying that you understand what the intervals are within them and what all the numbers mean?
Chords are built from the notes of a scale. Your root note, your 3rd (major or minor) 5th, 7th, etc. are all scale tones and the number denotes their order within the scale. Which notes are in your chord or chord progression dictate what scale you use. (Of course, if you don't really know which note within a chord is the 5th or which is a major or minor 3rd, it might not help you much....)

Concerning a single chord vamp for simplicity's sake. Lets say E minor. You've got a root note, a minor 3rd, and a 5th in the chord. The minor 3rd dictates playing a minor scale (or more correctly, a minor mode) (remember that the third is usually the only note that makes a chord major or minor)
A minor mode would contain all of those notes from the chord plus a few more notes which flesh out the rest of the scale. Of course you can complicate it much more than that once you enter a progression, but in it's simplest terms, that's how you use scales for soloing.

You can look to the other explanations for playing the scale, but maybe this will serve as one more piece of the puzzle for you.

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by dirtythermos

They are the same tone, but a C Dorian scale has an Eb, not a D#.

Okay, I have found the theory nazi that everybody is always talking about!


Seriously though, unless you're transcribing your music using key signatures or calling out note names as you're playing them , making sure you know this is not real helpful for practical guitar playing.

When it comes to playing guitar I think the focus should be on intervals more than anything. That opens up the fretboard both for chords and for scales. Knowing the "proper" note names is rather secondary in my book.

It's not that I'm faulting you for pointing it out, it's just that stuff like that is exactly what complicates theory for people and for someone just learning scales....who cares?

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

Okay, I have found the theory nazi that everybody is always talking about!

Not really, it's just that when describing scales, the convention is that there are no two notes (except the first and last, of course) with the same letter designator. It really is a lot less confusing that way.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

Okay, I have found the theory nazi that everybody is always talking about!


Seriously though, unless you're transcribing your music using key signatures or calling out note names as you're playing them , making sure you know this is not real helpful for practical guitar playing.

When it comes to playing guitar I think the focus should be on intervals more than anything. That opens up the fretboard both for chords and for scales. Knowing the "proper" note names is rather secondary in my book.

It's not that I'm faulting you for pointing it out, it's just that stuff like that is exactly what complicates theory for people and for someone just learning scales....who cares?

Yeah thats where I was coming from when I said they were the same note. I had a feeling there was some theory behind what dirtythermos was saying, and he's dead right, but to me it doesn't make an awful lot of differece.

Primarily I look at what frets to stick my fingers on, notes get converted into frets in my mind. In fact when I wrote that example, I didn't even know I was quoting the Dorian scale, I just happened for the sake of the example to stick a bunch of W's and H's together for the purpose of providing said example.

I can understand that that sort knowledge of theory is damn useful, but I'm the sort of guy that just plays, and knowing my scales (read: what frets I am allowed to hit at a given time) helps me with that 'just playing'. I am entirely self-taught as far as guitars go. So its mostly by ear for me. The very little I do know of theory comes from the piano lessons I had when I was little... I pick a little theory up along the way, but I only really keep in mind what applies to me Its naughty I know. I should really take it all in but y'know....

All in all however, this thread has been very helpful to me. I have never really heard this stuff explained like this in such easy to digest laymans terms. A lot of times anything I have read about theory , ie lessons etc, doesn't take into account that I don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.

[dirtythermos]

Certainly didn't mean to come off as a jerk or a nazi, but I probably did. Sorry guys.

I was entirely self taught until early this year. I started playing with some people who are REALLY GOOD and my as-seen-on-the-internet grasp of theory made it hard for us to communicate. Calling something D# when it was really Eb is one of the things that caused me some embarassment. They were all speaking the "language" and I was struggling with the vocabulary, if that makes sense.

I now take private lessons and my teacher is having to correct some of my thinking. His point is that our system of music was standardized hundreds of years ago, and there's no reason not to learn it correctly so we can all communicate.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by dirtythermos

Certainly didn't mean to come off as a jerk or a nazi, but I probably did. Sorry guys.

Oh hell no. You didn't come off that way at all. just sharing your knowledge. Thats always a good thing in my book

And I agree about learning theory etc. Just I'm a lazy sod at heart!

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by dirtythermos

Certainly didn't mean to come off as a jerk or a nazi, but I probably did. Sorry guys.

I was entirely self taught until early this year. I started playing with some people who are REALLY GOOD and my as-seen-on-the-internet grasp of theory made it hard for us to communicate. Calling something D# when it was really Eb is one of the things that caused me some embarassment. They were all speaking the "language" and I was struggling with the vocabulary, if that makes sense.

I now take private lessons and my teacher is having to correct some of my thinking. His point is that our system of music was standardized hundreds of years ago, and there's no reason not to learn it correctly so we can all communicate.

I meant no offense either. I respect someone who strives to understand theory, and you've got every right to point out errors. I just didn't want to see a discussion about enharmonic names break out. I didn't even look at the scale spelling you were talking about so in the context of what ggun pointed out I can understand not spelling it that way.

[daav]

Lots of misuse of vocab below, be warned:

at it's most simple for improvising, learn the blues scale, and play it 1000 times forward and back until you don't think about it anymore, your hands just automatically play the notes. Then play agains a slowish 12 bar pattern in the same key and jsut let 'er rip on the blues scale notes in that key until you start to get a feel for some of the patterns. Blues scale is basically just a small number of notes in the key that almost always sound good, so you will most quickly get the "feel" for the melody.

Now that is playing one keys scale over one keys progression.

To make something a bit more musical, as you would change the chord within the progression, shift the notes you are playing the melody to match. The key is that the scale you are playing is a physical pattern on the fretboard, if you move the pattern up and down the frets, you change the key. Bllues scale that starts on the E string, 5th fret would be A, move it back two rfrets yoau re playing in G, etc.

Then your melodic line will modulate (sort of) with the chords in the progression. So if you are playing 12 bar in E, you will do your solo based on the E root, then when the progression go to the A, you want to shift the scale pattern to the A root note and dot he same when it goes back to E and then to B, back to A, and finally on E and you devise a little flourish to end the progression and start over.

As I said, blules scale is a really simple, easy to work with at first. You can add more notes, and different patterns to go to major, minor and all the fancy mode stuff as well. The same way a minor chord may have a different musical impact (usually associated with sadness) different scales can lend a different tone to the solo.

Daav.

[mikemorgan]

All that stuff is true and is total bullshit. If you want to learn your way around a fret board, play one note and then any other note. That is an interval.

Just like you trained your ears to recognize chords, you must train your ears to recognize intervals. Once you can recognized two note intervals by sound, you'll be a lot farther than most guys who play scales all day.

Every book you ever bought explains theory to the nth degree, and it means absolutely nothin to a guy who plays by ear. Music theory discussions only lead to arguments which proves that no one really "gets it".

Al Dimeola gets it, Robert Fripp gets it, but most people just play the right notes because it sounds right.

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by mikemorgan

All that stuff is true and is total bullshit. If you want to learn your way around a fret board, play one note and then any other note. That is an interval.

Just like you trained your ears to recognize chords, you must train your ears to recognize intervals. Once you can recognized two note intervals by sound, you'll be a lot farther than most guys who play scales all day.

Every book you ever bought explains theory to the nth degree, and it means absolutely nothin to a guy who plays by ear. Music theory discussions only lead to arguments which proves that no one really "gets it".

Al Dimeola gets it, Robert Fripp gets it, but most people just play the right notes because it sounds right.

I will go along with that, and that's what I meant earlier when I said learning intervals is way more important than learning proper note names.
If you know intervals, you can build a melody without needing to acknowledge what scale you're playing from. Also you can build chords faster, and build off of chords faster. Guitar playing is all about intervals.
That's the same reason that I think it's kind of funny when people get hung up on naming accidentals and all of that malarky. Every key involves the same intervals and whether it's a sharp key, a flat key, a natural key, whatever....it's the same intervals on a guitar, you find the right notes the same way. It's nice to know, but it doesn't have anything to do with actual playing. It's only useful when you want to talk about it....and what good is talking about music?

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by gvarko

I have bought books, DVD's, online lessons and I still can't get my head around scales. All lessons start out great, then they say shit like you can color the scale with diminished this, or sharp that. At that point I go blank.

If your'e not having any luck with the books, DVDs, online lessons, etc, etc, then I strongly recommend getting a good teacher. In my opinion, a few live-and-in-person sessions with a good teacher is much more valuable than books, DVDs, etc. (And it's a hell of a lot more fun than working alone.) A lot of people shy away from it, though, because they're locked into the idea that lessons have to be weekly and that music teachers have to be old and stodgy. Find somebody you're comfortable with and take a lesson every two or three weeks for a little while. That's my two cents.

[metalhead28]

Hapicmpur also has a good point. I used to give lessons on a very informal basis, and often 2 or three lessons got people going in a direction that they never would have hit upon on their own (or at least it would have taken them alot longer)

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

If your'e not having any luck with the books, DVDs, online lessons, etc, etc, then I strongly recommend getting a good teacher. In my opinion, a few live-and-in-person sessions with a good teacher is much more valuable than books, DVDs, etc. (And it's a hell of a lot more fun than working alone.) A lot of people shy away from it, though, because they're locked into the idea that lessons have to be weekly and that music teachers have to be old and stodgy. Find somebody you're comfortable with and take a lesson every two or three weeks for a little while. That's my two cents.

And in a related story...

Don't be afraid of learning a little music theory. A lot of musicians shy away from it because they think that somehow that that knowledge will contaminate them and turn them into stodgy chart-readers. It ain't so; learning some theory merely establishes a common vocabulary which allows you to communicate with other musicians about stuff you already understand viscerally.