Recording live

[gummblefish]

I have been expirementing with my stuff for a while now. I have run into a few problems (to say the least) in the past. Usually my prblem is that when i start tracking i get bored of the song. I can never be arsed to finish it, so i have loads of unfinished tracks..and obviously loads of finished. Problem is this creates a time gap between projects so there is never a consistency, and even less empathy with the song.
Recently i have started wanting to record the songs live, and then maybe track or do over dubs after the fact. I usually run into problems such as bleed and getting a great take. I think recording this way is more "honest" and can create a better performance of the song, which usually goes astray in the confines of controlled tracking. In the last two days i have been setting up a stereo track (cubase) and routing my two Condensers (Mxl 603's XY configuration) to this. I play guitar at the same time as sing. I Know doing it this way may not sonically give the best results but it feels more natural to me.
I am asking if anybody has any advice on ways to track these songs so i can perform them live but still maintain a level of control over them at mix down. I want the voice to be clear and intellegable. Maybe i could throw another mic in there closer to my voice, so i get the room mics plus the closer ones...obviously this would all come down to placement and the room sound. I am (like most of you) a one man outfit and its very hard to balance things up and perform. any help would be greatly appreciated.

[mikemorgan]

I do the live track thing all the time. Yeah there is bleed all over it. I usually put on some inana drum loop to keep my timing solid, and then just let it all hang out in one take.

Then I use this one take slamfest as a scratch track to lay down the real tracks. I will re-record every instrument first, alongside the scratch track. This keeps the feel. After I have assembled enough good tracks, I'll drop the scratch track and record keeper vocals.

[gummblefish]

Originally Posted by mikemorgan

I do the live track thing all the time. Yeah there is bleed all over it. I usually put on some inana drum loop to keep my timing solid, and then just let it all hang out in one take.

Then I use this one take slamfest as a scratch track to lay down the real tracks. I will re-record every instrument first, alongside the scratch track. This keeps the feel. After I have assembled enough good tracks, I'll drop the scratch track and record keeper vocals.

Yeah thats the way i normally do it, but this time i was hoping to get away without doing all of that. Its only because i hate my own voice and if i give myself time to analyse i will scrub the track. I really want the best possible sound in one take. Do you recommend using a mic or two for each (voice and guitar) or the stereo recording way that i have been expirementing with..i am keen to keep it real.

[Das Poop]

I do this method a decent amount for songs that should have a bit more of that honest feel you're speaking of.

My recommendation is the following....

For vocals - use a dynamic mic like a SM58 or 58B (try a 57 if you have one...I've actually had better results with 57s on some voices). This will give you great separation on the vocal, though, it won't be as "clear" as a condensor, but you can work some EQ to get it sitting right.

I read a book about the making of Dylan's Blood on the Tracks, and they used a dynamic mic on his vocals for this very reason...to get separation with him still playing the guitar.


For guitar - if you have two mics left, i would record in stereo...why not? whether you use both is a different story, but definitely record both. if you add a lot of overdubs, i would ditch one of the stereo tracks....if it's just guitar and vocals, keep both....vocal bleed on to the guitar tracks will happen, but it's never as bad for vocal on the guitar track than visa-versa.


Lastly, record standing up, not sitting down. This will give you that extra bit of natural separation you need on the tracks.

Hope that helps.

[gummblefish]

Originally Posted by Das Poop

I do this method a decent amount for songs that should have a bit more of that honest feel you're speaking of.

My recommendation is the following....

For vocals - use a dynamic mic like a SM58 or 58B (try a 57 if you have one...I've actually had better results with 57s on some voices). This will give you great separation on the vocal, though, it won't be as "clear" as a condensor, but you can work some EQ to get it sitting right.

I read a book about the making of Dylan's Blood on the Tracks, and they used a dynamic mic on his vocals for this very reason...to get separation with him still playing the guitar.


For guitar - if you have two mics left, i would record in stereo...why not? whether you use both is a different story, but definitely record both. if you add a lot of overdubs, i would ditch one of the stereo tracks....if it's just guitar and vocals, keep both....vocal bleed on to the guitar tracks will happen, but it's never as bad for vocal on the guitar track than visa-versa.


Lastly, record standing up, not sitting down. This will give you that extra bit of natural separation you need on the tracks.

Hope that helps.

Great stuff there thanks, funny enough im going for a blood on the tracks feel.

[Das Poop]

Originally Posted by gummblefish

Great stuff there thanks, funny enough im going for a blood on the tracks feel.

That'll do it then. Dynamic on the vocal, condensor on the guitar.

The book is "A Simple Twist Of Fate: Bob Dylan and the Making of Blood On the Tracks" I recommend it to any Dylan fan.


If you don't have a dynamic yet, I'd recommend getting either an SM58b or SM57b. Both are great for live purposes and the b (beta) models are made for a bit more vocal presence. I would, though, see how your voice sounds on each, because different voices seem to work better on some voices.....57s seem to work better for me.

[gummblefish]

Originally Posted by Das Poop

That'll do it then. Dynamic on the vocal, condensor on the guitar.

The book is "A Simple Twist Of Fate: Bob Dylan and the Making of Blood On the Tracks" I recommend it to any Dylan fan.


If you don't have a dynamic yet, I'd recommend getting either an SM58b or SM57b. Both are great for live purposes and the b (beta) models are made for a bit more vocal presence. I would, though, see how your voice sounds on each, because different voices seem to work better on some voices.....57s seem to work better for me.

I'll definetly look that book up, as for the mics i have all of those...i been so stressed out with the process lately that i never even thought about using a dynamic on my vox. Funny how the simplest solutions pass you by sometimes.

[Das Poop]

Originally Posted by gummblefish

I'll definetly look that book up, as for the mics i have all of those...i been so stressed out with the process lately that i never even thought about using a dynamic on my vox. Funny how the simplest solutions pass you by sometimes.

Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

[SonicEd]

I have run into a few problems (to say the least) in the past. Usually my prblem is that when i start tracking i get bored of the song. I can never be arsed to finish it, so i have loads of unfinished tracks..and obviously loads of finished. Problem is this creates a time gap between projects so there is never a consistency, and even less empathy with the song.

Sounds like most of the issue is psychological; self-criticism. I also suffer form this. It is a common problem among musicians to be excited about an idea initially that hate it on the 20th time around. You have hit on a great solution: simple and quick live recording. Let me suggest one more, find a person to take the technical chores away from you (recording engineer). I'm not saying spend money, there are plenty of kids out there who want to learn and practice recording. I know, you want to do it all yourself to retain control, but I find that recording and editing as opposed to playing and producing require different parts of the brain to be engaged, and for me it's often hard to make the switch easily. Also, this person can keep you going by stroking you ego...

Just a thought

[gummblefish]

Originally Posted by SonicEd

Sounds like most of the issue is psychological; self-criticism. I also suffer form this. It is a common problem among musicians to be excited about an idea initially that hate it on the 20th time around. You have hit on a great solution: simple and quick live recording. Let me suggest one more, find a person to take the technical chores away from you (recording engineer). I'm not saying spend money, there are plenty of kids out there who want to learn and practice recording. I know, you want to do it all yourself to retain control, but I find that recording and editing as opposed to playing and producing require different parts of the brain to be engaged, and for me it's often hard to make the switch easily. Also, this person can keep you going by stroking you ego...

Just a thought

Im not bothered about getting someone to help out. I have done in the past as well as worked with top producers. This album that im making is only going to be independent anyway, so im not looking for a very controlled, produced sound. The only problem i have with getting someone in is that in the past i have brought mates and others round and i end up getting nothing done. Or i end up explaining the process for about 4 hours. This is why i have decided to go it alone and try and get work done. I want to get most of the album recorded in as small amout of time as possible. If i knew someone round here that i could trust and rely on i would certainly invite them in.. The last time i started this project i brought someone in who didnt come back and left me in a bad position.

[gummblefish]

Ive been recording in the aforementioned style for the last day now. I have to Say its one of the most time effective and enjoyable ways i have ever used. I have been getting great results. If you are a Singer/songwriter and you can play and sing at the same time in tune and time then i would recommend it to you. The atmosphere and realism that i am getting is incredible.

I am using a 57 on my voice and a mxl 603 on my guitar, i am standing as well. There are times when in a take i can force the song along in a way. But this gives the song the urgency that i ghave been looking for, Before, i tried to record this one song and it wasnt working, mainly due to the separate nature of the tracking and no real passion in the track. Best thing is i got most of the songs in one take. In the past i have spend days trying to get a vocal or guitar or pissing about with a soft synth or a piano.

[gummblefish]

Ive been recording in the aforementioned style for the last day now. I have to Say its one of the most time effective and enjoyable ways i have ever used. I have been getting great results. If you are a Singer/songwriter and you can play and sing at the same time in tune and time then i would recommend it to you. The atmosphere and realism that i am getting is incredible.

I am using a 57 on my voice and a mxl 603 on my guitar, i am standing as well. There are times when in a take i can force the song along in a way. But this gives the song the urgency that i ghave been looking for, Before, i tried to record this one song and it wasnt working, mainly due to the separate nature of the tracking and no real passion in the track. Best thing is i got most of the songs in one take. In the past i have spend days trying to get a vocal or guitar or pissing about with a soft synth or a piano. Now i Let the Mics and the song be my producer, and it works for me.

[Das Poop]

Originally Posted by gummblefish

Ive been recording in the aforementioned style for the last day now. I have to Say its one of the most time effective and enjoyable ways i have ever used.

Great. Glad it's working out. Down the road you might look into an SM7...I've never used one, but I'm definitely interesting in trying one out....it's supposed to be a great dynamic for this kind of thing.

[gummblefish]

Originally Posted by Das Poop

Great. Glad it's working out. Down the road you might look into an SM7...I've never used one, but I'm definitely interesting in trying one out....it's supposed to be a great dynamic for this kind of thing.

I used to have one, though as of late i have been recording and gigging with Two Sennheiser 441's. They are a great mic.