Setup for recording acoustic album

[solo.guitar]

I've been using the M-Audio AudioBuddy for awhile now just recording myself on acoustic guitar, and now I feel I'm ready to upgrade. However, this time I want to save up for the best equipment possible so I won't have to upgrade again. At least not majorly.

I will be recording acoustic guitar, mostly instrumental stuff. My main focus is quality.

My current setup is: Guitar -> Condenser Mic -> AudioBuddy -> SoundBlaster Live! 24-bit soundcard.

The most I'll need is 4 inputs/outputs (4 mics). I will never need to record more than 2 guitars at a time. I would go with 2 inputs/outputs, but it's nice having an extra 2 in case I want to record in a stereo conifg.

I'll need a mixer so I can adjust levels before routing the signal to my computer. I don't care about the quality of the preamps, as I'll be getting dedicated pres for the mics. I don't care about bells & whistles, like effects, etc. I just need the basic features, like being able to adjust levels before going into my computer.

I'll also need to be able to monitor what I'm playing as I'm recording, as well as playback whatever tracks I may be recording over. I will be doing this through headphones. I will also need to monitor the mix with monitors after I'm done recording.

That's basically it.

Thanks!

Edit: Forgot to mention I'll be upgrading my soundcard, probably to an M-Audio Delta 1010, but if anyone has other suggestions let me know.

Thanks again.

[daav]

If you want something of much better quality and that will not need upgrading for a while (or that you will be able to upgrade specifically a copmponent at a time) you can consider skipping the mixer, the interface, and so on and going for a chain more like:
Mic-> nice preamp -> dedicated A/D converter -> PC
If you can spend the $$ on individual components you can get 4 channels of nice sounding audio that way.

going the more moderate route, the delta 1010 is a good interface, but many more channels than you are saying you need, and timing-wise, there are a number of new interfaces coming on the market soon, and the delta has been arond for a bit. Going firewire or USB 2.0 might give you some fexibility to move to a different computer a bit easier when he time comes.

Either way, a mixer is nice for convienince with monitoring and to adjust levels, but not required, you shoud be able to establish levels with your preamps well enough directly into your interface. That said, i just picked up a soundcraft M4 and I love it so far, only 4 preamps, but like you, i have dedicated pres, but those channels have decent EQ with a sweepable mid, direct outs, and 4 aux channels- a very flexible little board. Allen and Heath are also well respected boards you might want to check out.

Daav

[solo.guitar]

Thanks for the reply. I'll probably go with something like you suggested, just dedicated pres, and A/D converters...

But, if I were to get a soundcard as an interface, doesn't it have it's own A/D converter built in? And that would make it pointless in getting hardware A/D converters...unless I were to get a firewire/USB interface and bypass the soundcard completely?

I don't have any experience with firewire/USB interfaces, and I'm a little worried about latency issues, so I really would like to stick to a PCI soundcard as an interface. But if I do that then there's the A/D problem...



Which way should I go?

Is latency really an issue with firewire/USB 2.0? I don't have the best computer in the world...

[sdelsolray]

A few thoughts:

1) If you really want top notch quality, get out your wallet. For solo acoustic guitar, you could easily spend $4,000 per channel, or more, for a mic, preamp and AD conversion. So what is your budget for 4 channels of front end, including microphones?

2) Latency will always exist with digital recording. But it can be mitigated, or avoided. For your monitoring while recording (i.e., headphones), use an analog chain (avoiding the digital realm). For recording additional tracks (you mentioned 2 guitars), latency won't be an issue when recording but might when mixing. Delay compensation, nudging and other techniques make things right.

I record solo fingerstyle guitar and did what you are doing now - building a decent setup. Don't forget your room.

[solo.guitar]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

A few thoughts:

1) If you really want top notch quality, get out your wallet. For solo acoustic guitar, you could easily spend $4,000 per channel, or more, for a mic, preamp and AD conversion. So what is your budget for 4 channels of front end, including microphones?

2) Latency will always exist with digital recording. But it can be mitigated, or avoided. For your monitoring while recording (i.e., headphones), use an analog chain (avoiding the digital realm). For recording additional tracks (you mentioned 2 guitars), latency won't be an issue when recording but might when mixing. Delay compensation, nudging and other techniques make things right.

I record solo fingerstyle guitar and did what you are doing now - building a decent setup. Don't forget your room.

Yeah, my room is the first thing I'm going to do before buying anything else, I'd just like to know what kind of setup I'll be using ahead of time.

I really don't want to spend $4,000...I've heard great sounding recordings that were done on a budget of much less than that. I hope that's not how much I'll need to spend.

I haven't had any latency so far just using the AudioBuddy -> SoundCard, atleast none that I can hear.

I don't really need to go analog, I don't mind using digital equipment. I don't have the option of testing out a bunch of analog stuff to see what I like...the stores around here don't even sell preamps or anything like that.

If you don't mind me asking, what equipment are you using, so I can get an idea of what to look for...and maybe if you have any recordings you could post a link? Since you're doing the same thing I am, that would help a lot.

Thanks for the help.

[Elmo89m]

you could look at the apogee mini me

[Elmo89m]

or you could go super low budget and do this

2x KM184's---->Neve Portico------>Lucid AD9624

[solo.guitar]

Originally Posted by Elmo89m

or you could go super low budget and do this

2x KM184's---->Neve Portico------>Lucid AD9624

Well, it's not that I need to go super low budget, I don't mind saving up for awhile if I have to. I'm just thinking to myself how much it's going to cost to treat my room, upgrade my computer, and then buy all the equipment.

I just don't think I'll need quite as much stuff as most people who record entire bands, you know, a whole collection of nice mics, preamps, mixers, etc...although it would be nice to have all that.

I'm just trying to do it right from the start, that will save money in the long term if I don't have to keep upgrading.

[c7sus]

Lynx2A. You won't be sorry.

[solo.guitar]

Originally Posted by c7sus

Lynx2A. You won't be sorry.

Do you have a link? I searched on zZounds and google and didn't find anything?

[XLR]

Spend lots of effort getting the room to sound good. Most untreated rooms in homes are both boomy in the bass and harsh in the upper mids IME, and in ways that the mic will pick up more than the guitarist will hear themself while playing. If you get the room so the guitar sounds good using cheap recording gear, it'll sound great with high quality gear. And if the room sounds bad through cheap gear, those bad characteristics will be even more clearly recorded by high end gear! That's been my experience anyway.

Tim

[Elmo89m]

Ha. Sorry. I was kind of joking about that being super-low budget. Those mics and that pre are like "The Name"(though some don't love that particular neve) and the Lucid is reputed to be pretty good itself.

[XLR]

The Lucid converters are great. Haven't used the Portico myslef. I didn't care for the KM184 pair I had for a short period... didn't like the hyped high end.

Things I have used and liked for both nylon and steel string acoustic:
mic's:
Schoep mk41
Neumann U87
MSH-1A omni (crazy cheap price, great sound)

pre's:
Great River MP2
Avalon 737sp
Electroharmonix 12AY7 tube pre (pretty cheap price, great sound)

Tim

[solo.guitar]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

The Lucid converters are great. Haven't used the Portico myslef. I didn't care for the KM184 pair I had for a short period... didn't like the hyped high end.

Things I have used and liked for both nylon and steel string acoustic:
mic's:
Schoep mk41
Neumann U87
MSH-1A omni (crazy cheap price, great sound)

pre's:
Great River MP2
Avalon 737sp
Electroharmonix 12AY7 tube pre (pretty cheap price, great sound)

Tim

Thanks, Tim. That helps a lot. I'm gonna check out that gear tomorrow. I've heard the U87 is supposed to be one of the best mics around for some purposes, but it' also over $2 grand. Not sure if I can stretch my budget that far...considering I still haven't done room treatment or anything yet...

I was thinking of getting a small diaphragm condensor for a mic, I heard they are more 'accurate' but also a little more noisy, but I don't care too much about that. Any of those that you would recommend?

I'm also going to look into the Great River preamp, I've heard a lot of good things about those.

Thanks again.

[Elmo89m]

TO Timothy: The KM84 and KM184 are different mics. The KM84's dont have as bright of a sound as the 184's

To Solo: If you are going to get Small Diaphragm for acoustic you will want two of them, preferably matched. and then stereo mic (XY). The MXL 603's can be really amazing mics for acoustic guitar, especially for how cheap they are. Check those out for sure (mojopie.com has a good review of them)

[Elmo89m]

You gawked at spending two grand on a u87 but i believe a great river pre is around 1500 or more isn't it?

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Originally Posted by solo.guitar

I'll need a mixer so I can adjust levels before routing the signal to my computer.

You don't need to do that, get clean signals recorded into the comp then you can mix inside the box.

If your budget was $2,000 (as an example) you'd be better off spending at least half of that on room treatment (probably more like three quarters) and getting cheap but solid hardware ie. Pair of MXL 603s, M Audio DMP-3 and M Audio Delta 44 with the rest. Then you can get started with recording and maybe save over time for a solid pair of mics, then a couple of channels of pres, converters etc.

I know it's been said already but I can't emphasise how important the sound of the room is, especially when it comes to recording acosutic instruments. You can make very respectable recordings in a good room with cheap gear, but no amount of high end gear will make great recordings in a crappy soudning room, in fact as has been said it could make things worse.

Take it from someone who spent a load on gear and got crappy results before deciding to pay attention to all those people saying "sort your room out first". After quality of source (nice sounding guitar, played well) it's THE most important thing.

[XLR]

Originally Posted by Elmo89m

TO Timothy: The KM84 and KM184 are different mics. The KM84's dont have as bright of a sound as the 184's

That's true. We had been talking about the 184 though, right? ...as first mentioned in your earlier post.

Originally Posted by solo.guitar

I was thinking of getting a small diaphragm condensor for a mic, I heard they are more 'accurate' but also a little more noisy...

Modern small diaphragm condensers of the quality of Schoeps and DPA are dead quiet. There's a lot of misleading info around about mic's re noise levels, diaphragm size, and other things.

The only effective way to buy a mic and preamp is to hear them for yourself. You also really need to hear a particular mic and pre used together, since mic's often sound very different with different pre's.

On any forum you'll get lots of opinions on what gear works well for an application, even second hand info passed on as an opinion. But you don't know if you're going to like a piece of gear until you use it yourself. For instance... something as basic as the difference between omni and a cardioid patterns... they sound very different by nature... that difference can't be described effectively with words... you've got to hear it for yourself. Pro audio rental services and local studios with high end gear are worth spending a few bucks on so you don't end up wasting thousands of $.

Tim

[Elmo89m]

oop, sorry tim, i meant to say KM84

[Elmo89m]

The advice and hardware suggestions that kevin gave you are pretty solid. The only thing different i would think is that if your mainly recording acoustic stuff that because MXL 603s are actually pretty good at that, you would want to upgrade your pre's b4 your mics. But that is just a matter of opinion i suppose.

[solo.guitar]

Wow lots of great advice here, thanks.

I've been reading several articles on acoustic room treatment, and am still a little confused as to what exactly I'll need, since it differs for each room.

I'm also renting this house so whatever I'll do needs to be able to be undone... anyone else in the same situation?

My closet is big enough to turn into a small isolation booth, just barely big enough to get fit a couple mics in there and play guitar, so maybe I can make something out of that and not have to treat the rest of the room so much, except for monitoring, etc. That could save a lot of time/money, but then again, if I want to record more than 1 guitar at a time it wouldn't be possible.

Pair of MXL 603s, M Audio DMP-3 and M Audio Delta 44 with the rest.

I've heard good things about the DMP-3 so maybe I'll try that out. I also see a deal online for an MXL 603 + MXL2001 for $100...does this sound like a pretty good deal?

I'd like to try out some of this stuff before committing to it, maybe some of the local shops have some microphones, I don't know. They didn't have any preamps, and only had a small selection of mixers and other recording gear last time I checked...but they should have microphones...

Anyway, thanks again for the replies, I'll look more into it later, I'm on lunch break right now.

Take it easy

[XLR]

I've heard good things about the DMP-3 so maybe I'll try that out. I also see a deal online for an MXL 603 + MXL2001 for $100...does this sound like a pretty good deal?

I'd like to try out some of this stuff before committing to it, maybe some of the local shops have some microphones, I don't know. They didn't have any preamps, and only had a small selection of mixers and other recording gear last time I checked...but they should have microphones...

My comment about gear trials was aimed more at high end gear... still good though to try anything first. The DMP3 and 603s combination is such a standard and good quality low end setup that anybody would be fine just buying it outright IMO.

My closet is big enough to turn into a small isolation booth

Personally, I'd use the biggest room available and treat that. I've never liked the sound of closets. There are very cheap ways to do room treatments.

EDIT: I'd add too that getting into serious recording with the aim of producing an album is only practical IMO if you're realistic about the results expected. If you're a pro guitarist and want truly pro quality results in the recording you'd be smart to go to a good studio. There's a long learning curve towards "pro quality" home recording. But it's a really fun learning curve.

Tim

Tim

[bubbagump]

To throw yet another wrench in the works... the EMU 1820M (and 1616M) have probably the best bang for the buck convertors out there. For my money and keeping things simple to start with and allowing for expansion (the EMUs have lightpipe in for later super expensive convertors if you want them) an 1820M, a couple of good omnis, a few bucks in room treatment, a gobo or two, and a decent pre (Grace, ADL600, Great River, even those Onyx pres are good). this is not the higest end setup in the world, but it will sound pretty durn good and you might even have a few bucks left over. My 2 cents.

[solo.guitar]

What makes some A/D converters so much better/expensive than others? I've never used an A/D unit before, but to my knowledge, they just take the analog signal and convert it into digital format...like they sample it at whatever sample rate?

I'm guessing some are more accurate than others?

I'll have to look into that some more...

I'd add too that getting into serious recording with the aim of producing an album is only practical IMO if you're realistic about the results expected. If you're a pro guitarist and want truly pro quality results in the recording you'd be smart to go to a good studio. There's a long learning curve towards "pro quality" home recording. But it's a really fun learning curve.

And I'm guessing a really expensive learning curve...

Probably not one I could afford in the short-term, but I feel I can get by with less-than-pro gear, not entry level, but something decent. I have a nice guitar with a nice sound, and I think if my room is properly treated I can get by. The recordings I've made so far, just toying around with my current setup, a lot of my friends thought they were done in a studio...but I guess that's because they haven't done any serious recording themselves...

I'm not really aiming for a 'commercial' sound, I'd rather have it sound authentic. I doubt my CD would hit it big anyway, but I already know some people, about 75-100, that are waiting for me to record the album, and as long as it sounds good that's okay with me. They probably can't tell the difference anyway.

[bubbagump]

Convertors are exactly that... some more accurate than others. This is manifested in a few different ways. First is jitter. Essentially, jitter is a measure of how consistant the space between the samples is. Think of it like dominoes falling.... if one domino is sort of late or early in the sequence, the pattern is smeared. That is super simplified, but hopefully you get the idea. Jitter is also effected by the clock used. That is another reason I suggest the EMU, the clocks in those things are quite excellent for the price point. You also have filtering issues in convertors. At the high and low end of the frequency scale there is a cut off filter. Now the filter is not a brick wall.. it has a slope to it. Crappy slopes means good stuff gets cut out, smeared, etc. Lastly, you have all the stuff feeding the convertor. A 10 cent POS opamp before the convertor is not going to be the same as a discrete tweaked signal path feeding a good convertor.