ad converters in the analog world

[Golden]

Hi gang! I’m curious about ad converters as it pertains to those of us who record on analog tape...Mainly in the mix-down process…

I’ve been sending mixes straight into the computer, editing/mastering in WaveLab, then burning discs. Now, if I were to send my signal through an ad converter before it hit the soundcard, would it make a “big” difference in the overall quality of the sound? Or is it just one of those magical subtle differences that only an angel would hear?

Any experiences?

I’m curious…

[Beck]

I mix my music for angels just in case.

The converters on a soundcard can make a big difference. Personally I send my analog recordings into the digital world through a good stand-alone CD recorder. IMO it would take a whole lota soundcard to compete with the converters in my Fostex CR300.

There are even a few consumer CD recorders that I would prefer over most PC soundcards... the Pioneer PDR555RW or the Elite PDR-19RW, to name a couple.

The outboard converter route is another way to go, but some of it seems a little hyped and trendy.

~Tim

[Tim Gillett]

As in a lot of audio stuff the key question is "what is (are) the weak link(s) in my system?" It might be the audio converter, whether inboard or outboard. It might be a part of the analog system. It might be the way all of it is used and not the equipment as such. That is to say, the problem might be me! It might be a combination, where I dont understand the weaknesses of my particular system and so dont know the "work arounds" to make great recordings in spite of the equipment limitations. For the equipment will always have limitations. I use both an inboard card and an outboard unit (not at the same time) and both work fine for me. I've no experience with CD recorders.
To answer the question properly you would need to do A/B tests of your converter against others but as I said it's not just that but how it fits into the chain of your total analog/digital setup which of course includes the human element.
I'm thinking of the fantastic recordings that were made many decades back using gear that fell well short of what is available today to the HOME user.
If you're recording on analog multitrack and then mixing down to, I assume, 2 track in Wavelab, a lot of the most important decisions re mixing have already been made in that transfer and there's nothing you can do about that digitally, short of a complete remix. The ideal would be transferring the entire multitrack to multitrack digital files and then you've got much more creative control. But that would involve more digital hardware and software of course and already I'm starting to stray from your question.
I started out using the popular M Audio Audiophile 24/96 which is only a moderately priced onboard card but I still use it and so long as I respect its limitations it's fine. Nearly always the limitations are in the analog end and that's where I have to work the hardest to keep things sweet.
All the best, Tim

[cjacek]

Speaking of stand alone (CD) recorders ... I know you've named a couple but DO complete the list with some more to keep an eye out for. Is there anything currently made in the $200 - 300 range which you would recommend ?

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by Golden

Hi gang! I’m curious about ad converters as it pertains to those of us who record on analog tape...Mainly in the mix-down process…

I’ve been sending mixes straight into the computer, editing/mastering in WaveLab, then burning discs. Now, if I were to send my signal through an ad converter before it hit the soundcard, would it make a “big” difference in the overall quality of the sound? Or is it just one of those magical subtle differences that only an angel would hear?

Any experiences?

I’m curious…

Yes if your soundcard has an input that bypasses the onboard A/D converters. Read the manual. They should have optic inputs. Buy a nice Lavery converter and be done with it.


Have fun.

[MCI2424]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Speaking of stand alone (CD) recorders ... I know you've named a couple but DO complete the list with some more to keep an eye out for. Is there anything currently made in the $200 - 300 range which you would recommend ?

Sure. Here.http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYRCDW500C

[Golden]

Tim, I hear what you're saying and like it! That's pretty much how I feel about the situation myself. I'm currently using an M-Audio 24/96, and I have no problem with the results that I'm getting with this card. However, I'm also hearing a lot of talk about external ad converters like the apogee 200, and I was wondering if it was worth picking up such a device to assist with the "mixdown to computer" process. Really, I'm wondering if it's the key to a "more accurate" translation of what's on the tape. However, I hear what you're saying. I getcha!

[Beck]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Speaking of stand alone (CD) recorders ... I know you've named a couple but DO complete the list with some more to keep an eye out for. Is there anything currently made in the $200 - 300 range which you would recommend ?

The list is short, and believe it or not my fav CD burners are no longer made. Imagine that!

All but the first model below are based on the same Pioneer board.

Pioneer PDR-05 (consumer, write only… no RW)
Pioneer PDR-555RW (consumer)
Pioneer Elite PDR-19RW (consumer)
HHB CDR-850 (Pro)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/hhb.htm
Fostex CR300 (Pro)

Any of these may go for $200.00 - $300.00 on the used market but the latter two will usually exceed that.

The HHB830 is the current model… new for under $600.00. Unfortunately, it has 24-bit A/D conversion, so it’s not the same happy combination as the previous model. This is great for HHB from a marketing perspective. However, the spec sheet fails to note the internal D/D conversion from 24-bit to 16-bit. For those of us that believe less and/or smaller digital-to-digital conversion steps are better, this makes the 830 less appealing. Hence, the old models still fetch a good price.

~Tim

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Golden

I'm also hearing a lot of talk about external ad converters like the apogee 200, and I was wondering if it was worth picking up such a device to assist with the "mixdown to computer" process. Really, I'm wondering if it's the key to a "more accurate" translation of what's on the tape.

I think so. sound is totally subjective so all one can give is their opinion. or you can look at spec sheets and maybe get something from that. personally, I try to mix down to tape, and view conversion to digits as part of the mastering process for the CD medium.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by MCI2424

Sure. Here.http://www.zzounds.com/item--SNYRCDW500C

Thanks. Looks to be feature rich, although I'm not so sure how reliability of this recorder fits in with the CD changer side of it. My experience has been that these types of units (CD changer feature) are a bad idea from a mechanical reliability point of view. Anyway, thanks for the heads-up.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by Beck

The list is short, and believe it or not my fav CD burners are no longer made. Imagine that!

All but the first model below are based on the same Pioneer board.

Pioneer PDR-05 (consumer, write only… no RW)
Pioneer PDR-555RW (consumer)
Pioneer Elite PDR-19RW (consumer)
HHB CDR-850 (Pro)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/hhb.htm
Fostex CR300 (Pro)

Any of these may go for $200.00 - $300.00 on the used market but the latter two will usually exceed that.

The HHB830 is the current model… new for under $600.00. Unfortunately, it has 24-bit A/D conversion, so it’s not the same happy combination as the previous model. This is great for HHB from a marketing perspective. However, the spec sheet fails to note the internal D/D conversion from 24-bit to 16-bit. For those of us that believe less and/or smaller digital-to-digital conversion steps are better, this makes the 830 less appealing. Hence, the old models still fetch a good price.

~Tim

Thanks very much Tim! The HHB looks sweet, tho, not to mention the Fostex! Wow!!

[themaddog]

Originally Posted by Beck

The list is short, and believe it or not my fav CD burners are no longer made. Imagine that!

All but the first model below are based on the same Pioneer board.

Pioneer PDR-05 (consumer, write only… no RW)
Pioneer PDR-555RW (consumer)
Pioneer Elite PDR-19RW (consumer)
HHB CDR-850 (Pro)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/hhb.htm
Fostex CR300 (Pro)

Any of these may go for $200.00 - $300.00 on the used market but the latter two will usually exceed that.

The HHB830 is the current model… new for under $600.00. Unfortunately, it has 24-bit A/D conversion, so it’s not the same happy combination as the previous model. This is great for HHB from a marketing perspective. However, the spec sheet fails to note the internal D/D conversion from 24-bit to 16-bit. For those of us that believe less and/or smaller digital-to-digital conversion steps are better, this makes the 830 less appealing. Hence, the old models still fetch a good price.

~Tim

This appears to be a good list, but I do have to add in my own bit of personal experience.

I've purchased two of the units from this list, the Pioneer PDR-555RW and the HHB CDR-850. I purchased both used, but both had the same issues. Neither would record, nor even properly play-back, CD's. I even tried playing back various, brand new CD's (real CD's, not CD-R's) but they would not play. I ended up returning both units and had to front shipping both ways.

From what I've read on other forumns, this is a problem specific to the Pioneer board.

Just a warning, it might have just been I was really unlucky!

-MD

[Beck]

Originally Posted by themaddog

This appears to be a good list, but I do have to add in my own bit of personal experience.

I've purchased two of the units from this list, the Pioneer PDR-555RW and the HHB CDR-850. I purchased both used, but both had the same issues. Neither would record, nor even properly play-back, CD's. I even tried playing back various, brand new CD's (real CD's, not CD-R's) but they would not play. I ended up returning both units and had to front shipping both ways.

From what I've read on other forumns, this is a problem specific to the Pioneer board.

Just a warning, it might have just been I was really unlucky!

-MD

Problemo Numero Uno when buying used -- might be used up. Unfortunately, there are people standing in line for the chance to sell us non-working equipment.

I’m not sure what the lifespan is of a typical CD recorder, but it’s many times less than the average open-reel tape deck, I’m sure. And of course UPS will cut even that in half.

[themaddog]

Yeah, I was looking forward to hearing what the difference would be like between my Delta 44 card and a standalone CD recorder.

I did a test once where I recorded a tape mixed on my Tascam 22-2 into the Delta 44. I then played back the tape and the computer recording from the same point and went back and forth between the two, listening for differences.

I didn't really notice high-end distortion, probably because of the tape's softening effect in that regard. The biggest difference that I immediately heard was the narrower, stereo image of the digital recording.

-MD

[Beck]

Originally Posted by themaddog

The biggest difference that I immediately heard was the narrower, stereo image of the digital recording.

-MD

That's something that hasn’t really improved since the earliest days of digital. It doesn't seem to matter what digital format or product. Greater bit depth and/or higher resolution won’t improve stereo imaging. It’s one of the cons of digital in general.

I have CDs for convenience, but when I really want to sit down and take in the music, I still listen to vinyl or tape.

Bottom line – I wouldn’t worry too much about stereo spread as a reason to choose one digital card or method over another (unless its an extreme). This is one area even the lowly cassette tape puts digital to shame.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Buy a nice Lavery converter and be done with it.

Ah, mr. money is no object spouts off again. While your at it, buy a Mercedes to pick up the Lavery.

[Dr ZEE]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Ah, mr. money is no object spouts off again. .

Nop. That's mr. money is the ONLY object.
*******

Buy a nice Lavery

Uh, ..that's very 'Lovely'
btw, since Dan despises any sort and any level of subjectiveness, artistic interpretation of "truth" and inaccuracy (FACTS and HARD facts only! - type of guy...heh heh heh), and thus, he'd be REALLY pissed seeing his name beeing misspelled (or say: artistically modified )

/later

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Golden

Tim, I hear what you're saying and like it! That's pretty much how I feel about the situation myself. I'm currently using an M-Audio 24/96, and I have no problem with the results that I'm getting with this card. However, I'm also hearing a lot of talk about external ad converters like the apogee 200, and I was wondering if it was worth picking up such a device to assist with the "mixdown to computer" process. Really, I'm wondering if it's the key to a "more accurate" translation of what's on the tape. However, I hear what you're saying. I getcha!

The M-audio is fine. There is better, but it will be five to ten times the price. Just about anything under $800 wouldn't be enough of a step up to make a big difference.

[Golden]

Originally Posted by Farview

The M-audio is fine. There is better, but it will be five to ten times the price. Just about anything under $800 wouldn't be enough of a step up to make a big difference.

My main thought was to keep the M-Audio and just bypass its ad converters via its digital input and use a stand-alone ad converter such as a rosetta 200 as the main ad converter. However, I’ve been thinking about this whole affair, and I’m wondering if I’m making it out to be more than it needs to be.

Nonetheless, I’m leaving it open…

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Golden

My main thought was to keep the M-Audio and just bypass its ad converters via its digital input and use a stand-alone ad converter such as a rosetta 200 as the main ad converter. However, I’ve been thinking about this whole affair, and I’m wondering if I’m making it out to be more than it needs to be.

Nonetheless, I’m leaving it open…

That would be a step up and a fine way to go.

[leddy]

Bumping this thread back to life. At the moment, I record on location with digital gear, then mix down to my Tascam 22. Overall, it has made things sound better. The biggest improvement is in how much easier it is to get the mix to sound good. Getting the bass to sit right is no longer difficult, etc...

Anyway, I do need to send it back in for CD burning, and sometimes I may need to mix in Cubase and send it to tape and back in again. I am stuck here until I build up some more outboard gear. So the question is:

My soundcard is a Delta 44. How much better quality would an investment in Apogee or similar yeild? Has anyone made a similar upgrade and said "holy shi!t, that made a big improvement"? If so, what did you upgrade from / to?

Thanks.

[Farview]

Upgrading converters will get you more 'depth' and/or a 'wider' stereo field and everything will become 'clearer'. Of course, the clearer part is what the analog tape tends to take away. The best converters are the most transparent ones. Since you run everything to tape, you really aren't looking for transparency...

The main difference between the M-Audio and the cheaper Apoggee is the quality of the analog path and the clock.


It will be noticable, but until those are the only things keeping your mixes from being great, you are probably better off spending money and time elsewhere.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Farview

Upgrading converters will get you more 'depth' and/or a 'wider' stereo field and everything will become 'clearer'. Of course, the clearer part is what the analog tape tends to take away. The best converters are the most transparent ones. Since you run everything to tape, you really aren't looking for transparency...

The main difference between the M-Audio and the cheaper Apoggee is the quality of the analog path and the clock.


It will be noticable, but until those are the only things keeping your mixes from being great, you are probably better off spending money and time elsewhere.

I'm confident my mixes are at a level where converters will make a difference - provided better converters make a difference.

I know the question may make me sound like a beginner, but since I do location recording, I was content with the stock A/D converters in my Alesis HD24 or my Edirol R4 for the most part. I have not had to put much thought into converters. I put much cash/thought/time into mics and pres. Now with extra trips in and out of the box as I move to a hybrid setup, I need to research better conversion, assuming it exists. Respectable folks like Ethan Weiner have made claims that it's not that important. I wanted to hear from dedicated analog folks.

The quality of the analog path and clock makes sense. Thanks for the input.

[Dr ZEE]

Since you run everything through a A/D converter, you really aren't looking for transparency.

(just a btw note)

[Farview]

Originally Posted by leddy

The quality of the analog path and clock makes sense. Thanks for the input.

That is really the big difference. Most of the actual converter chips are the same from unit to unit. There are a few different ones, but the actual chip doesn't seem to matter as much as the surrounding circuitry. The conversion itself is pretty straight forward. But, like preamps and microphones, all the details start to add up. The clock is the the important thing for the conversion process. Of course, the path leading up to the converters needs to be of high enough quality to not color the sound on the the way to and from the converter.