AKG D112 vs Shure Beta52...EQ

[SMX_Dizzy]

Hey. Well, it's between these two mics for my bass drum. The price is only $10 difference, so it's not huge, but there's one thing I've heard. I heard that the D112 is a lot more natural sounding and doesn't need as much EQing as the Beta52 needs. Is this true? Or are they both pretty much the same?

And if you feel like answering, why do you like one over the other?

[Farview]

I have both. Either one will do the job, but it depends what you are looking for.

The d112 has more punch
the beta 52 has more depth.

You can use either one with some EQ and get the others sound.

The D112 likes to be inside the drum, a couple inches from the batter head.
The B-52 likes to be just inside the vent hole in the front head, if the head doesn't have a hole, use a D-112.

[SMX_Dizzy]

I don't have a hole in my bass reso, and don't see the need for one (unless it really does make a huge difference in recording), so you think I should get the AKG? Which of your drum samples use the Beta52 and which use the D112?

I'll take the punch and depth thing into consideration though.

[Farview]

My samples are created with (at least) 4 mics on the bass drum. A D112, Beta 52, 421, and a Neuman M150.

If you don't have a hole in the reso head, you will not get a sharp attack. The best you can hope for is a punchy thud.

[Farview]

The punch and depth thing is mainly a midrange emphasis difference. The Beta 52 being more clicky with a scooped sound. The D112 is more natural.

[Dogbreath]

Originally Posted by Farview

I have both. Either one will do the job, but it depends what you are looking for.

The d112 has more punch
the beta 52 has more depth.

You can use either one with some EQ and get the others sound.

The D112 likes to be inside the drum, a couple inches from the batter head.
The B-52 likes to be just inside the vent hole in the front head, if the head doesn't have a hole, use a D-112.

What he said...

I've got both and that's pretty much what I've found. Depending on what type of tune it is will determine which one I use.
I usually don't use any EQ on the kick at all. I just putz around until I find the sweet spot.

[TragikRemix]

i have the d112.

i dont know what im doing though so i bought v drums and DFH superior...

i want to go back and work on recording real drums eventually. its just so freaking hard to get a good sound...

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TragikRemix

i want to go back and work on recording real drums eventually. its just so freaking hard to get a good sound...

The drum needs to sound good to begin with. After that, it's easy.

[bubbagump]

Originally Posted by SMX_Dizzy

I don't have a hole in my bass reso, and don't see the need for one (unless it really does make a huge difference in recording), so you think I should get the AKG? Which of your drum samples use the Beta52 and which use the D112?

I'll take the punch and depth thing into consideration though.

It can make a big difference. It depends on the sound you are after. If you are after 40s big band... then you will want a reso head with no hole and no dampening. If you want heavy metal clicky kick sounds, take off the front head completely, and dampen the snot out of the batter head. In my experience, most pop/rock music benefits from a decent slap on the kick drum and that can be hard to capture with the reso head booming away. The low end boom is often covered by the bass guitar and all boom and no slap leaves a "poofy" sounding kick drum with no attack. This can be good or bad depending. Try dampening the reso head by leaning pillows etc against it. The more click/slap you want the less reso head sound you want... so dampen and remove heads accordingly. Keep in mind, sometimes what sounds good live does not always sound good on tape and vice versa. Drums are a great example of this as so much of what you hear in commercial music is a big lie.

[SMX_Dizzy]

so I can try different types of dampening on the reso and batter head? I've done that in the past to achieve different sounds, so maybe instead of cutting a hole I'll move it around to get a better bass sound.

I really should start treating my room though. I won't go into detail about how I'm going to treat it, but it really doesn't sound that good. It's too bad it's the only room that's available for a transformation into a studio.

[Farview]

If you have the mic inside the kick, the room doesn't matter.

What kind of a sound are you looking for?

[SMX_Dizzy]

I wasn't trying to say the room mattered, but it'll be nice to hear what my drums really sound like once it's treated.

I'll try to find an example for you of what I want it to sound like. Honestly I'd like both qualities of depth with some punch...if you have actual examples of a side-by-side format test, like a bass drum with a D112 and the same bass with a Beta52, that'd be great (THAT GOES FOR ANYONE!).

[TragikRemix]

Originally Posted by Farview

The drum needs to sound good to begin with. After that, it's easy.

so i understand...

i have a vintage ludwig vistalite kit which are supposadly really hard to make sound good on a recording. well, thats the truth... they are just way too loud!

thats just my reasoning to buy another drumset!!! actually, im going to either build one from keller shells or buy old ludwig maple shells and fix them up nice.

i know i should just buy some new heads but i want a new kit!!!!!

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by TragikRemix

i have a vintage ludwig vistalite kit which are supposadly really hard to make sound good on a recording. well, thats the truth... they are just way too loud!

What does how loud they are have to do with how well they sound recorded?

[bubbagump]

I wouldn't write off the vistalites. Sound good is subjective... a lot of folks have recorded Vistalites with success, so what is your definition of a good sounding kit? A guy who has tweaked out his kit for jazz combos with an 18" kick and ride with sizzles is not going to think a double 24" kick, power tom, 8x14 snare drum kit sounds good. The point is, the mics can only capture what is fed to them... so make your kit sound the way you want it to before you bother recording it. Loud doesn't have as much to do with it (it does from the standpoint of the dynamic between drums/cymbals) but how does the over all kit sound?

[travelin travis]

i've heard that the vistalites are REALLY loud. from my understanding, loud drums + not so great room = crappy sound.

[bubbagump]

Just about any kit in a crappy room will suck. I guess I am assuming the room is decent to begin with. Assuming that, then it is all about the kit. Louder means more reflections for a longer period of time as all those little air molecules bounce around for a longer period of time to dissapate the sound energy. So I am agreeing with Travis in a way..... loud kit in crappy room will sound crappy. I guess I am more splitting hairs over being sure he is chasing after the right thing. Going out and buying a brand new $6000 DW or Starclassic kit and putting it in the same crappy room will be time and money wasted.

so I can try different types of dampening on the reso and batter head? I've done that in the past to achieve different sounds, so maybe instead of cutting a hole I'll move it around to get a better bass sound.

I don't know if you physically can (dickhead 5th grade teacher in me ), but unless your mother is stopping you, why not? Do whatever you have to do to make it sound like you want it. Take the heads off, try different heads, try different dampening, mic the batter head, mic the reso head, mic the shell, mix and match, there are no rules in this game other than it has to sound good when all is said and done. No on elistening to the recording will care how you did it. All they will know is if the tune is good and the instrumentation and production are fitting for the song.

[TragikRemix]

to my observation, the drums are loud, making me have to move the mics back more than i would like. now, instead of close-miking the kit, it's like having 7 overheads,(not literally). theres so much bleed too.

the kit itself sounds great. when recording, the tom mics pick up this terrible sound, almost like a 'buzz' whenever the toms are hit. i think its because there loud and then the sound bounces like crazy in the drums and resonates the batter head more than other drums. i cant just take off the resonant head because vistalites are plastic and a prone to cracking like that. they made concert toms, but those were most likely to crack. if i had a wood kick, i would take off the reso head but thats not an option.

DFH drums sound really good though, so im not too focused on that right now.

but does anyone have any ideas for new heads? i know evans hydraulics are kinda muffled. i was thinking hydraulics on top and evans G2 on the bottem.

the kick already has an emad batter and a holez in the reso. the snare is trickiest i think. it sounds SOO nice, but bad on recording... maybe i could just pick it up through an overhead instead of putting a 57 on it?

and sorry for stealing your thread...

[Farview]

If you can't turn the gain down any more, get some line pads. The problem isn't the drums, it's the fact that the mics are too far away.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by TragikRemix

to my observation, the drums are loud, making me have to move the mics back more than i would like. now, instead of close-miking the kit, it's like having 7 overheads,(not literally). theres so much bleed too.

the kit itself sounds great. when recording, the tom mics pick up this terrible sound, almost like a 'buzz' whenever the toms are hit. i think its because there loud and then the sound bounces like crazy in the drums and resonates the batter head more than other drums. i cant just take off the resonant head because vistalites are plastic and a prone to cracking like that. they made concert toms, but those were most likely to crack. if i had a wood kick, i would take off the reso head but thats not an option.

DFH drums sound really good though, so im not too focused on that right now.

but does anyone have any ideas for new heads? i know evans hydraulics are kinda muffled. i was thinking hydraulics on top and evans G2 on the bottem.

the kick already has an emad batter and a holez in the reso. the snare is trickiest i think. it sounds SOO nice, but bad on recording... maybe i could just pick it up through an overhead instead of putting a 57 on it?

and sorry for stealing your thread...

Ah, I get it. Good explanation. I have fibreglass drums (not the same as plexi-glass or whatever). They are pretty loud, too, but it never made the recorded sound an issue for me. Yours must be a lot louder for it to affect the recorded sound that much.

[bilco]

Originally Posted by Farview

The punch and depth thing is mainly a midrange emphasis difference. The Beta 52 being more clicky with a scooped sound. The D112 is more natural.

So, without using EQ, would the D112 be better suited for an acoustic singer/songwriter type sound with brushed snare drum? If you were going to record "Fire & Rain" again for JT, is the D112 the best fit?

Thanks,
bilco

[Farview]

Originally Posted by bilco

So, without using EQ, would the D112 be better suited for an acoustic singer/songwriter type sound with brushed snare drum? If you were going to record "Fire & Rain" again for JT, is the D112 the best fit?

Thanks,
bilco

Yes, I believe it would. Even though the mic that was most likely used on that record would have been either an RE-20 or a U-87.

I would place the mic outside the kick about a third of the way up the reso head.

[TragikRemix]

what i did once that i liked alot- d112 and an sm57 in the kick. d112 fully inside and 57 kinda poking in. the two sounds blended together well and that was my best kick drum sound. if only i had an extra 57..

[bubbagump]

Originally Posted by bilco

So, without using EQ, would the D112 be better suited for an acoustic singer/songwriter type sound with brushed snare drum? If you were going to record "Fire & Rain" again for JT, is the D112 the best fit?

Thanks,
bilco

To take Farview's point a step further.... For a really natural drum sound, you can just use three mics. 2 OHs and center mic out a few feet fomr the kit. For jazz and big band stuff, I do this all the time. It is just soooo important not to get into a formula when micing drums (or anything else really) as every genre has a different sound and you need to be flexible and adjust things for the genre. Just because you have a kick drum mic doesn't mean you always need to use it on kick. Try other mics. I have a D6 I adore, but there are some sessions I just don't use it becuase it doesn't fit the context and I use another mic or no mic on the kick.

[SillyBee]

Originally Posted by Farview

The drum needs to sound good to begin with. After that, it's easy.

This is always good advice!