EQ ING MIX .. / compressing mix

[ripingitar]

IM recording my bands cd . rock drop c tuned .. as far as eq I try just to do a low cut on everything.. kick im rounding down from 62 hz ... sounds fine .. im cutting below 125 on guitars and bass ive tried different freq but not quite getting the separation between guitar bass and kick i want ?? any suggestions ? also how much compressing do you do in the mix vs in mastering ? I currently am compressing kick snare , guitars and bass ..in the mix .. ?

[chessrock]

Oh brother.

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[bryank]

is this for real?...........does that actually work?...........

ive never heard this before.....................the whole panning from left to right theory.............

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So let me get this straight...

The way to tell if you have a masking problem is to unmask the masked track by panning it away from the competing track.

Yet the way to solve a masking problem is to to leave the competing tracks stacked in the pan space but to seperate them with EQ.

Yeah, I think I understand why the best engineers in the world never mention this method...

G.

[ripingitar]

Thanks Bob . im gonna try that ..

[LIMiT]

http://www.bluebearsound.com/articles/mixing101.htm

I would start here (compliments of Blue Bear Sound)

Cheers,

-LIMiT

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Bob,

First, I'm not completly comfortable with your definition of "transparancy" in a mix, as I think transparancy involves much more than just dealing with track competition. But that's just minor semantics; no biggie . We'll run with it here.

The technique you describe sounds like an inside-out version of checking the mono mix. What you're describing is instead of looking for "masking" by stacking all the tracks to mono (which as you probably know is a very common technique) and seeing what disappears, you're recommending looking for masking in already stacked (in pan space) tracks by looking for sounds to be unmasked when you unstack the tracks.

If my understanding of what you're describing is correct, the theory is good, but there is a correlary assumption in there that I question; under what circumstances does one want to stack in the L/R dimension two tracks that are already sharing the same space in the spectral dimension?

There are situations such as parallel compression or stacked guitar lines or vocals, but those are all situations where one is multitracking the same part, in which "masking" is not really the issue but reenforcement is.

OTOH, in cases where there is true "masking" as I understand it, where tracks of differing parts are stepping on each other, step one is almost always to seperate them on the soundstage. Which, really, they should be already; it's pretty much usually a Bozo no-no to throw two instruments with similar forments but playing different lines anywhere near each other on the stage (unless you're recording Poi Dog Pondering and you have no choice because there are 34 musicians on one stage .

I'd also kindly recommend that you go into some more detail on your page regarding the actual EQ techniqe used to seperate the two tracks, such as differential EQing, parametric sweeps, etc. But to just say "use EQ to unmask them" really just begs the question, doesn't it?

G.

[Chris.]

If that's not dodging the question, I don't know what is.

[noisewreck]

Originally Posted by Chris.

If that's not dodging the question, I don't know what is.

He's got a point though. Far too many posts turn into "you're wrong" "that's not a good way to do things" "you're damaging the young padwan" and end up turning into pissing contests rather than offering helpful advice.

So, how does one get transparent mixes?

1a. Arrangement
1b. Choosing sounds that work well together in the first place

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by Bob Speer

How's that dodging the question. The question here is how can ripingitar seperate the instruments in tracks. Anything else takes this thread off topic. What's your advice to him? How should he achieve transparency.

You don't answer that in your article. Your article describes one potential method for ascertaining masking issues.

I think the OP has already determined that. He needs help with solving the issue.

Rip - I would suggest you post a sample of your track in the MP3 section and ask for help there.

[Chris.]

Yeah, but Glen's question just asked him to elaborate on what he was telling him to do. "EQ the instruments to unmask them from other instruments" doesn't help him if he doesn't know how.

[chessrock]

Oh Christ, Bob. Knock it off with the "Transparency" bullshit already. I'm ready to puke all over myself at any minute. Mixing since the 70's, my ass.

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[darkcubus]

unless you want to mangle the interfering instruments with eq it might be best just to reconsider lowering the amount of interfering frequencies between both instruments and retrack them.

[Robert D]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Oh Christ, Bob. Knock it off with the "Transparency" bullshit already. I'm ready to puke all over myself at any minute. Mixing since the 70's, my ass.

.

I needed a good laugh today, thanks Chess.

Glen, Stop confusing the poor man with facts, er, I mean banter.

Oh well, what can you do?

[P. Rene]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Oh Christ, Bob. Knock it off with the "Transparency" bullshit already. I'm ready to puke all over myself at any minute. Mixing since the 70's, my ass.

.

LMAO hahahaha dang thats harsh, hate to see you during a bad session buddy.

[Keiffer]

wow... is this scene familiar!!!

thanks for the post Bob.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Bob,

I brought up legitimate questions and points, and were relevant to the thread. I also wanted to see just how much you knew...considering that article you linked to doesn't help anybody out with anything at all. "EQ to fix masking." Oh geez, now why didn't I think of that?

The fact is, Bob, you were steering ripingitar in an irrelevant direction and then not taking him there very quickly, at least not in public. And my questions were on point as they dealt with seperation issues and followup questions brought up by your advice to fix his problem with some kind of general EQ.

So, OK, on to ripingutar's problem. I agree with frasierhutch that a proper answer would require hearing the mix. But barring that, guesses can be made:

- Pan the bass and kick a few degrees apart, each side of center.

- Then pick which one of those two you want to steer the beat and slide that track about 5-8 milliseconds ahead of the other, This will have the combined effect of making the kick phychoacoustically sound a tad louder than the bass and seperate them enough in time to make them distinct sources without adversely affecting the beat. Slide the kick forward to make the beat more forceful and anthem-like, or keep the kick where it's at and slide the bass back for a more funky-bluesy feel; whichever you prefer to taste.

- Pick which one of the two you want to have a sharper attack to it and adjust your comressor to slow down the attack a bit, and maybe try a small EQ boost somewhere around 4kHz to enphasixe either the pick strike or the batter strike, depending on the track.

- EQ the other rhythm instrument (not the one you gave the 4k boost to) to emphasize the low bass somehwere around 80-100Hz to give it a bit more "boom". This is optional, and depends upon the quality of the track. But play with that a bit and see how that works out. Don't overdo it nevertheless.

- As far as the guitar, that you chould take a parametric EQ and sweep looking for the dominant resonant frequency that you can throw a couple of narrow-Q cut at to sweeten it's overall sound. Getting rid of the resonant mud will help lift and seperate it from the LF rhythm section.

All the above are YMMV - use one or use many or use none - and just thrown out there as general prescriptions that maybe you could use. But without hearing the track, it's impossible to narrow down properly.

How's that Bob? Now, do you mind answering my questions because I am legitimately curious and maybe we all can learn something. It's up to you to determine where we learn a new/old technique or whether we learn that you're just blowing smoke up our skirts in an attempt to drum up some bedroom-based mastering on a cracked copy of Waves.

I'll accept a good, well-considered answer either way. Please, no more Scott McClellan imitations; those are so a month ago .

G.

[ripingitar]

thanks Glen and Bob .. gives me a good direction ..thanks .. ill post a mp3 when i can .. later

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

- Pan the bass and kick a few degrees apart, each side of center.

- Then pick which one of those two you want to steer the beat and slide that track about 5-8 milliseconds ahead of the other, This will have the combined effect of making the kick phychoacoustically sound a tad louder than the bass and seperate them enough in time to make them distinct sources without adversely affecting the beat. Slide the kick forward to make the beat more forceful and anthem-like, or keep the kick where it's at and slide the bass back for a more funky-bluesy feel; whichever you prefer to taste.

- Pick which one of the two you want to have a sharper attack to it and adjust your comressor to slow down the attack a bit, and maybe try a small EQ boost somewhere around 4kHz to enphasixe either the pick strike or the batter strike, depending on the track.

Not to bust your chops or anything, Glen. But I do have some serious and legitimate disagreement with this method. Not that I think it's the end of the world or anything if you do it that way.

But I would never advocate taking the liberty of sliding tracks over like that, unless you're doing it to compensate for phase issues or latency. And I realize 5-8 ms is pretty inconsequential in the big picture of things ... but the groove between the drummer and bassist, in many instances, represents the very backbone and soul of the track.

The very best grooves you hear are the ones where the kick and bass sound like one instrument. Not to sound like Bob or anything, here, but a very popular method of helping the kick and bass to jell a little better is actually to bus them to the same compressor, same channel, same settings, etc. Really helps, big-time, in punching up the rythm section.

On another note, 4 khz will very seldom bring out anything useful in a bass guitar ... unless you consider a lot of junk or hiss to be useful. And there's nothing wrong with that, of course. For more definition, try 800 hz, and for pick attack, try 2 khz.

If the guy's looking for separation between guitar/bass/kick ... all you can really tell them is to experiment with eq from a frequency standpoint, panning from a left-right standpoint, or reverb and compression from the front-back standpoint. To even try and get any more specific than that is probably counter-productive. At some point, you need to learn how to do an EQ sweep and listen for what different frequencies do, in the context of the mix, when you boost and/or cut them. There's really no starting points you can give someone; unless you're able to sit there with them as they mix.

Just a few minor beefs I thought I'd bring up. Otherwise, good post. Carry on.

.

[Chibi Nappa]

Originally Posted by ripingitar

ive tried different freq but not quite getting the separation between guitar bass and kick i want ?? any suggestions ?

If you can re-record, do it. Sounds like a bad case of "fix it in the mix". Come mixing time, everything should be nice and separated all ready. Mixing EQ can make a track sound better for sure, but it really shouldn't be needed to make a mix work in the first place.

So pay careful attention while you record. If at all possible, wear headphones with the mix (and instrument you're recording) playing while you place the microphone/set the tone. Then check your results on your monitors after that. Do not record with an attitude of "they're not separated now, but we'll separate them later". If you record something and it's not working with the other recorded instruments as-is...it's probably not the right way to record it.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Not to bust your chops or anything, Glen. But I do have some serious and legitimate disagreement with this method. Not that I think it's the end of the world or anything if you do it that way.

But I would never advocate taking the liberty of sliding tracks over like that, unless you're doing it to compensate for phase issues or latency. And I realize 5-8 ms is pretty inconsequential in the big picture of things ... but the groove between the drummer and bassist, in many instances, represents the very backbone and soul of the track.

The very best grooves you hear are the ones where the kick and bass sound like one instrument. Not to sound like Bob or anything, here, but a very popular method of helping the kick and bass to jell a little better is actually to bus them to the same compressor, same channel, same settings, etc. Really helps, big-time, in punching up the rythm section.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say chess. Again, this is one of those threads where it comes down to interpretation of words because we can't hear the actual music. I was going on his looking for "seperation" of the bass and kick, to use his words.

And - again this totally depends upon the tyle of music as to which way to work this if at all - but very often a slight lag between the bass an kick can add an enormous amount of groove and feel to the rhythm. Lag the bass slightly behind the beat and things can feel much more low down and funky. Put it right on the beat and it's much more up front and formal. Lag the kick slightly behind the drums for a more world beat kind of sound.

And we're talking extremely short times here, on the order of maybe 10ms, give or take. At that level, the other idea to to take advantage of the presidence effect. When you have a bass and a kick that are competing in the mix, sliding the one you want to emphasize just a few ms forward (or pushingthe other one back a few ms, depending on which way you want to skew the groove) will help emphasize the sound of the first instrument. The advantage is that it can accomplish this without having to fuck with any further EQ or compression processing that may (maybe) cost more in signal mangling than the profit returned in sonically seperating the two.

It all depends upon the music style and the arrangement, as usual.

G.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

... very often a slight lag between the bass an kick can add an enormous amount of groove and feel to the rhythm. Lag the bass slightly behind the beat and things can feel much more low down and funky. Put it right on the beat and it's much more up front and formal. Lag the kick slightly behind the drums for a more world beat kind of sound.

Whatever you say, SS.

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[fraserhutch]

Looks like Bob (Bob Speer) up and deleted his posts in this thread, as well as most of his other posts. I wonder why he left 3 behind?

Too funny.

[EddieRay]

Originally Posted by fraserhutch

Looks like Bob (Bob Speer) up and deleted his posts in this thread, as well as most of his other posts. I wonder why he left 3 behind?

Too funny.

Aha. No wonder this thread makes no sense.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by fraserhutch

I wonder why he left 3 behind?

So he could do exactly what he originally came here to do in the first place; plug his "mastering" services.

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