I need to add punch to my distortion

[myhatbroke]

I have some nice tones from hours of experimenting but I still can't figure out how to add punch. They sound thick but not like they're in your face. A really good example of this is in Nickelback's newest album. It sounds really punchy. I tried using a compressor but Im not sure how to use it and all it did was lower the volume, which is opposite of what I want. I also tried to add more bass but it didn't relaly work either and it made it clip too. So im not sure what to do. Is it something with the recording or the mixing?

My set is a gx65 crate amp, sm57 mic 6 inches from it and 2 inches to the side of the cone. It goes to a VTB preamp with +4 tube blend and 50 gain. This then goes to the Lexicon Lambda and thats about it. Levels are good, theyre just a little below clipping.

[boingoman]

EQ settings on your amp?

[bryank]

try a multi band compressor, and have one band go from 350-600 hz (body of a distorted tone), and set the attack to around 7-10 ms, and the release around 100 ms, threshold should be set to around where the compressor started to work (maybe -10db), and the ratio around 1:4 or 1:5.

this should get some pumping going on! or even try those settings on a regular compressor, not just a muti-band................

dont forget to set the gain/output up a bit to maximize volume too!

[myhatbroke]

Originally Posted by boingoman

EQ settings on your amp?

3 Bass 6 Mids and 10 High and on my rp300A i have the rectifier amp model with -5bass 6 mids and 10 treble. It doesnt need more bass because itll start saturating.
Also can you explain how a compressor works exactly...its cool that you told me what to do but id like to understand the logic

[nevome]

Just a little below clipping isn't "good" for your input levels, I'm not sure how many times I've seen that on this forum, try it and you'll start to believe it. A search will yield the apropriate threads which explain in detail why.

Maybee try backing the dist. down a little since square waves lack punch, let the guitar sing through the dist a little? Maybee even splice the signal and run a second input with a completely clean version of the take and mix to add punch? If the lower gain version doesn't have enough body for you double track it to thicken it up?

Remeber, if your guitar playing and tone coming from the amp lack dynamics, so will the recorded sound.

[myhatbroke]

Originally Posted by nevome

Just a little below clipping isn't "good" for your input levels, I'm not sure how many times I've seen that on this forum, try it and you'll start to believe it. A search will yield the apropriate threads which explain in detail why.

Maybee try backing the dist. down a little since square waves lack punch, let the guitar sing through the dist a little? Maybee even splice the signal and run a second input with a completely clean version of the take and mix to add punch? If the lower gain version doesn't have enough body for you double track it to thicken it up?

Remeber, if your guitar playing and tone coming from the amp lack dynamics, so will the recorded sound.

I do double track but it just sounds thick. No punch.NO that didnt work, that doesnt even make sense?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by myhatbroke

I tried using a compressor but Im not sure how to use it and all it did was lower the volume

Read up on "output gain" or "makeup gain" in your compressor's manual or help file. That is the step you're missing.

G.

[bryank]

trying to explain "how compression" works is hard...i just know how to do it. It will sqwish the singal down a little, but you have to make it back up by using the output/gain on the compressor too. But when you set the relesae time low around 100 ms, and set the attack fairly low (around 5-10 ms), it will creat this pumping/ sucking in-and-out type of sound.

sometimes too much gain on an amp will not give you the dynamics your looking for either, turn down the gain a bit untill its still heavy, but not too thick. try that with the comprssion settings and see if that helps..........

[chessrock]

You might try shopping this question around in the Guitar/bass forum.

The sad and unfortunate reality is that your guitar tone has to sound punchy to begin with in order for it to come out in the finished product. And unfortunately, bands like Nickelback have their choice of just about any type of amp they might want to use. And they would probably let out more than a few chuckles at your Crate amp. Not trying to be mean, but that's the sad reality of things. They also probably have full-time guitar techs on their payroll, and all the time in the world to fool around, experiment and get picky about their tone.

This is, essentially, a tone question, and if you're not getting the tone you want, then you need to experiment with your technique (how you pick and how your chords are structured, etc.) and your gear. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, or tell you to give up. Just letting you know that it could take years of refining before you get the punchy tone you're after. If it were easy, then everyone would be doing it and the answer would be common knowlege by now.

Back to your question, if your tone is lacking punch, that's a dynamics issue. And dynamics issues with electric guitar generally boil down to a tone that is too saturated and driven; i.e. too much gain. Chances are you need to try to find a happy medium between a good, driven sound ... but doing so in the context of a considerably lower-gain setting. This could mean having to play a much nicer amp at considerably higher output volumes; driving the power tubes. EL-34 based amps tend to do a good job of this sort of thing, for example. Think Mesa Boogie, or the "master volume" Marshall amps like the JCM800, etc. with master cranked almost to the point of speaker craping out ... with gain set at more modest levels. Good luck.


.

[Reggie]

Yup, in most everyone's opinion, a good tube amp just does the "punchy" thing so much better. Fuzzy distortion will maybe get you "thick" but not punchy. You could try looking at your compressor again--try a slow attack and a fairly fast release. Sometimes that will accentuate the punchiness of a track...if there is any there in the first place. Something that is sort of modelled in the 1176 style is good. You could also try Blockfish as a good freebee; put the knob in the slow range and adjust compression amount to taste.

[David Katauskas]

As already stated, you won't get a puchy tone from that amp...I know...I've tried. The source has the biggest influence on the final sound.

[myhatbroke]

Ok well this isnt going to be my main amp soon...im going to get this one...http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...mp-?sku=480334
Do you think this will work?

[Keiffer]

what's your idea of punchy?

the more gain (not volume) you run the more compressed the tone and the less punchy it'll be. balance is required.

punchy is going to come from the speaker actually moving air.

back off on the gain and up the power section.

if you cant't feel the punch with your hand in front of the speaker, there's none for the mic to pick up.

a compressor is not going to give you punch with a distorted guitar signal if it's not already in the signal. it's not the same as compressing a kick drum for instance.

kp-

[myhatbroke]

Originally Posted by Keiffer

what's your idea of punchy?

the more gain (not volume) you run the more compressed the tone and the less punchy it'll be. balance is required.

punchy is going to come from the speaker actually moving air.

back off on the gain and up the power section.

if you cant't feel the punch with your hand in front of the speaker, there's none for the mic to pick up.

a compressor is not going to give you punch with a distorted guitar signal if it's not already in the signal. it's not the same as compressing a kick drum for instance.

kp-

OHH, I thought yall were talking about the preamp gain. So the amp gain is what needs to be lowered?

[ermghoti]

I haven't heard any clips, and I'm unenthusiastic about your amp, but big, thick and punchy distorted guitar sounds are nowhere near as distorted as one would think. Really listen carefully to a good heavy guitar tone (pro recording/release) and you won't hear a wash of fuzz, you'll hear grunt, which comes from "enough" gain, not "insane" gain.

For $400, get a used tube amp, rather than another (probably disappointing) SS amp. $400 will get you something entirely usable. Try Traynor, Carvin, Peavey, maybe you'll luck out on a small Fender, or find an Epiphone you really like.

Edit: A little over your price range, but you'll be done buying amps: http://dallas.craigslist.org/msg/183037386.html

Dallas CL is a ghost town! Sheesh.

Try eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Peavey-Valve-Kin...QQcmdZViewItem
Pickup only = nobody will bid: http://cgi.ebay.com/Traynor-YCV80-2x...QQcmdZViewItem Score!

[Reggie]

Yeah a Peavey 5150 is a good cheapy for punchy high-gain. That Randall you are looking at may sound OK? but I haven't heard any "tube simulators" that sound like the real thing. "Valve-Dynamic power section with warmth, feel, and character of power tubes" is pretty much a marketing BS line.

OHH, I thought yall were talking about the preamp gain. So the amp gain is what needs to be lowered?

Read again:

back off on the gain and up the power section.

preamp gain is usually where the fuzz is, power amp (tube) gain is where the punch is. On tube amps, you kind of have to learn their sweet spot, but I usually turn up the master volume up pretty high and then start to dial in the preamp gain to add crunch but stop when it starts to get too mushy.

[ermghoti]

Reggie, I think he was confusing the amp preamp with the mic preamp gain.

[Keiffer]

Originally Posted by myhatbroke

OHH, I thought yall were talking about the preamp gain. So the amp gain is what needs to be lowered?

I'm not sure...

Generally but not in every case
Volume - Volume
Gain - controls the preamp section saturation
Master Volume - controls the Power section and Volume

All three affect each other

The key here is balancing these to get what you want. Note that higher Gain compresses the signal.

Here's two clips (same song) with different amps and gain.

Cobra - Less gain

5150 - More Gain

Looks like my hosting service is having problems and the clip may not fully download. Try again later if you care.

kp-

[CIRO]

Hey, you send (another thread)a record with a midi instrument solo that can be any thing (but not a guitar, as you insist) and fool everybory here. We are talking about very good and occuped professionals that don´t have time to waste with you.
Not because you sent a midi track, nothing wrong.But, as a big liar, you insist thats a real guitar...

[appleyardrules]

maybe someone already said this but you said the 57 was 6 inches from the speaker two inches from the cone try moving it alot closer

when i record guitar with an sm57 its usually straight up in the middle of the speaker only a quarter inch from the speaker
my amp is a crate too
another thing i like to do for a nice guitar sound is i put my akg perception 200 about 4 inches from the center of the speaker, its a nice sound, and im sure and LDC would do...
but yeah
try moving it closer
and adjust the low setting on your amps EQ