Mastering options

[tanoka]

Hi HR,

I've spent the past three days at Frankford Wayne in Times Square. My engineer is cutting lacquer off 15 ips 1/4" dolby A preservation LP master which came from the original baked tape. The first plate (20Khz - 20hz) I referenced at home had significant tape hiss, turns out the dolby A needed replacement on the tape machine and didn't work at all, so today I got another plate (15Khz - 20hz) with corrected dobly A.

To me the plate with dolby sounds much better than without but my engineer thought the opposite and offered to cut without dolby limiting the range at (10 or 12 Khz - 20hz) to eliminate most of the hiss even though it's against the rules.

I was wondering if of those two options one is always better than the other in how it subsequently presses to vinyl? Is it crazy to consider both dolby and capping out at 10 or 12 Khz since I still heard some hiss in the dolby plate?

thanks,
Tenyu

here's the reel:

[tanoka]

I brought the high quality CD master which also came from the original baked tape on the second day at FFW to reference and even though it had almost no hiss, the dynamics were extremely confined compared to the tape preservation master, a world of difference imo.

[Beck]

You’re talking about a preservation plate, not necessarily for vinyl pressing, right?

If you’re trying to preserve the original recording, I would definitely use dolby. Without decoding you have a compressed recording that needs expanding through the dolby decoding process. High frequency roll-off of a non-decoded tape is sonically destructive to the source, and can’t really replace decoding.

The tape might not be the only source of the noise. Low frequency roll-off can help the overall noise picture when dealing with lacquer masters and vinyl. 20 Hz is pretty low. Rolling everything off below 30 or even 50 can improve the pressing. Rolling off a bit at both ends makes for a louder sounding record. 30 Hz to 18 kHz with dolby on should sound good. Most adults can’t hear much over 16 kHz and most teens around 18 kHz.

Have you considered transferring to another tape? IMO, transferring to BASF/EMTEC SM 468 is preferable for preservation… no roll-off needed. New SM 468 is now available again under the RMGI brand.

~Tim

[tanoka]

Hi Tim,

I am mastering lacquer for vinyl pressing, the tape I'm cutting from is the actual preservation/album master.

I just recorded a ballad off both dub plates onto soundforge 16 bit 48Khz .wav and converted to 256 kbps 48Khz .mp3s so you can hear for yourself the difference during the quietest passages.

There Must Be An Answer (without dolby)

There Must Be An Answer (with dolby)

I think it sounds great with dolby, its just that my favorite independent seventies soul albums have perceivably no hiss and sound very warm all around. This being my first time manufacturing vinyl I don't know how much of the pressing process will mask over the hiss I'm hearing in the reference lacquer? After your recommendation I will definitely cut with dolby and roll off from 30hz, I'm still not sure about the top end maybe 15 or 12Khz would be a safer route for the sound I'm looking for. Any further ideas after hearing the samples are much appreciated!


Here's the record I'm releasing.

kind regards,
Tenyu

[Herm]

What was this originaly recorded to?

[tanoka]

Hi Herm,

Here is a jpeg of it.

And the mixing board and lathe at FFW.

The engineer told me he had not cut from a dolby tape in over 12 years!

thanks,
Tenyu

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by tanoka

Hi Tim,

I am mastering lacquer for vinyl pressing, the tape I'm cutting from is the actual preservation/album master.

I just recorded a ballad off both dub plates onto soundforge 16 bit 48Khz .wav and converted to 256 kbps 48Khz .mp3s so you can hear for yourself the difference during the quietest passages.

There Must Be An Answer (without dolby)

There Must Be An Answer (with dolby)

I think it sounds great with dolby, its just that my favorite independent seventies soul albums have perceivably no hiss and sound very warm all around. This being my first time manufacturing vinyl I don't know how much of the pressing process will mask over the hiss I'm hearing in the reference lacquer? After your recommendation I will definitely cut with dolby and roll off from 30hz, I'm still not sure about the top end maybe 15 or 12Khz would be a safer route for the sound I'm looking for. Any further ideas after hearing the samples are much appreciated!


Here's the record I'm releasing.

kind regards,
Tenyu

Oh shit, that was so good! Listened to the one with Dolby and got shivers down my spine. Magnificent sound and great vocal!!!

Took a listen to the vers without Dolby as well and you definitely do not want to do it like this. There are pumping / breathing artifacts. Very similar to recording something with dbx and then playing it back without. You need to cut it with the original noise reduction used.

Btw, which tape machine was used to record this originally ?

Also, I want to purchase one of the vinyls when it gets done.

[cjacek]

Sorry for the potentially dumb question but what is Hollygrove Records ? I listened to some samples and I totally dig the sound. I want to know more.

[tanoka]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Oh shit, that was so good! Listened to the one with Dolby and got shivers down my spine. Magnificent sound and great vocal!!!

Took a listen to the vers without Dolby as well and you definitely do not want to do it like this. There are pumping / breathing artifacts. Very similar to recording something with dbx and then playing it back without. You need to cut it with the original noise reduction used.

Btw, which tape machine was used to record this originally ?

Also, I want to purchase one of the vinyls when it gets done.

Hi Cjacek,

On the album, five songs were recorded in 1979, two in 1978, and one in 1975, unfortunately I have no idea what the original machines were in the studios used just that they were done on 1/2" multi-tracks and mixed down to 1/4" 15ips.

This is what its all about for me so I will definitely do it the correct way with dolby now that I've had a day to digest the two dub plates and learn a little bit more. I'm still debating where to roll off at 12or 10Khz but most of the tracks are dancers where the music dominates over the hiss so I'm sure it'll sound great either way.

Thanks for the positive words and I'll make sure to bump this thread when the records arrive from the pressing plant.

cheers,
Tenyu

[tanoka]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Sorry for the potentially dumb question but what is Hollygrove Records ? I listened to some samples and I totally dig the sound. I want to know more.

It's my new record label www.hollygroverecords.com

I'm making vinyl records of unreleased seventies and eighties soul music without any digital processing.

All the original records for sale now in the used section are not on Hollygrove, just a boutique shop for collectors to hopefully draw more traffic and attention to my future releases. The gospel section is my passion as well, digitally transfering from vinyl is very time consuming!

Tenyu

[cjacek]

Thanks! Consider me a big fan of Soul & Gospel, then!

It's good that you don't do any "digital remastering" 'cause I can't stand that! I think that faithfully transferring what's on the source tape is what it should be about. Great stuff!

So which section and records are freshly made and new, straight tape to vinyl transfers ? I'm interested in those.

[cjacek]

Just a followup: Under the section "Gospel" ... are those newly pressed vinyls from tape or used or cds or ... ?

[A Reel Person]

..............

[tanoka]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Thanks! Consider me a big fan of Soul & Gospel, then!

It's good that you don't do any "digital remastering" 'cause I can't stand that! I think that faithfully transferring what's on the source tape is what it should be about. Great stuff!

So which section and records are freshly made and new, straight tape to vinyl transfers ? I'm interested in those.

Originally Posted by cjacek

Just a followup: Under the section "Gospel" ... are those newly pressed vinyls from tape or used or cds or ... ?

Honestly I don't like digital at all either. The only new records I'm making will be sold under the RELEASES tab. Other records sold in the USED(w/lo-fi samples) or displayed in the GOSPEL(hi-fi full streamable songs) are original analogue vinyl records 20-40 years old, except a few 8ts gospel titles which obviously came from DAT sources tell by listening even by mp3 streams(ie Pure Heart Travelers) on occasion exceptions made for musical quality very rarely of course.

Is there any specific reason why you're only interested in new vs old analog vinyl (nonwithstanding price) ?

Tenyu

[tanoka]

Originally Posted by A Reel Person

..............

Thanks David,

I just read two pm's you sent a year ago first time today. Your inbox was full so couldn't reply. Hope the problems resolved themselves?

Tenyu

[A Reel Person]

(if I could only remember!).....................

Actually, I just remembered, and the answer is YES! I got a lot of support off this board back then for my situation. Thanx, too.

Pls click on my user name to find my "new" homepage! (The old home page is history!)

[tanoka]

something over a digital troll.....

[tanoka]

Looking at the site, are all those CD's in the music section your work? So many!

[A Reel Person]

Yeah, baby!.................

[A Reel Person]

Originally Posted by tanoka

something over a digital troll.....

Yeah,... that.

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by tanoka

Is there any specific reason why you're only interested in new vs old analog vinyl (nonwithstanding price) ?

I'm actually interested in all of them but there's something cool about having some made from never released tapes in 2006, without any digital mastering! The older analog Gospel recordings I especially dig. Sincere, raw sound. Thanks for the additional info btw.

[rayc]

I have tinitus, not so great Sony h/phones and h/phone fatigue from dropping into this BBS too much BUT to my, sorry set of, ears the dolby version sounds GGOOOOOOOOODD. I believe I could hear stuff in the non dolby version that, whilst it wasn't distracting, wasn't contributing to a better piece of music.
Nice work by the way.

[tanoka]

Hi everyone,

Got my first release in today. Small workout carrying 23 record boxes up a flight of stairs. One of the best soul albums ever recorded in New Orleans in my humble yet informed opinion. Can listen and purchase this completely analogue recording here:

http://www.hollygroverecords.com/index.php?act=releases

Please note majority sales are royalties paid to Family Underground musicians who persevere and struggle daily in whats left of New Orleans since Katrina.

Not all shameful promotion myself but every other soul label I've contacted, all the major players, cut their records from CD masters and I have very little respect for their disregard of the music and history albeit intentional or not.

kind regards,
Tenyu Hamaki