Controlling toms in the overheads

[Chris F]

When recording jazz trio with my modest setup (MOTU 1224/Digital Performer on a Mac) in a decent sounding room, everything is working pretty well except the level of the toms in relation to the rest of the kit in the overhead signal, as in behind the piano solo on this cut. The toms jump out so much at times that it limits the dynamic range of the entire recording and bottoms out a couple of times. The overheads are MXL 603's running into a DMP3, and except for the toms, the level on the pre is pretty low. What can i do to lessen this effect? Raise the mics up? Spread them out? I really don't want to use a limiter on the way in, but since I'm playing bass on all the stuff I record, I can't do anything but set the levels and turn the recording on and off.

Any and all suggestions welcome.

[NYMorningstar]

I listened to this 2X and did not feel your pain.

You should post this in the MP3 clinic for more reviews.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?f=15

[RAMI]

Can you tell us what your overhead mic configuration is?

[andydeedpoll]

i thought it sounded fine, and i have to say i did really enjoy listening to that kinda soulful and quirky at the same time. clever music

Andy

[Chris F]

Thanks for the comments - you guys work quick! The overheads were about 5 and 1/2 feet high, and [sort of in a crossing pattern, with each on on a boom stand to the left and right of the kit, each aimed at the cymbal on the opposite side. Listening back, I think both the snare and toms are too hot, and they are the only thing that triggers the last 6 db of headroom on the meter.

Should I have started this thread in the MP3 clinic? D'oh!

[bigtoe]

try either or both raising the mics and/ or pulling the mics back more over the drummer's head...you could also try cutting some lower mids...like gently cutting starting around 500 with a shelf eq.

the positioning will help you most though...at least it does me... particularly the backing the mics over the drummer's dome.

Mike

[blueroommusic]

If you are going to use a "semi-crossing" pattern, you need to be a bit more exact...X/Y configurations can be testy if you don't get the capsules lined up right. make sure they are as close to a 90 degree angle as possible...and move them around...you might even have to move them around alot to find the sweet spot...the main thing you want to focus on is getting the best overall mix of the drums...

I didn't listen to the track, so I don't know what kind of skill level your drummer is playing at, but he could be "dynamically challenged"....studio drummers are used to playing a kit in the studio...they know HOW they need to play, what kind of dynamics they need to play with to get the right mix of their drums into the overheads....

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by blueroommusic

If you are going to use a "semi-crossing" pattern, you need to be a bit more exact...X/Y configurations can be testy if you don't get the capsules lined up right.

I agree...It can't be "sort of" X/Y. If the mics aren't 90 degrees to each other, you're inviting problems.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Very nice recording! The stand up particularly sounds good, not an easy thing to do all the time.

I generally agree with the rest that I don't see the drums as that much of a problem. In fact, I'd be quite hesitant about pulling back the OH's as the drums already have a fair amount of "room" included with them, I wouldn't want to make them much more reverberated and distant than they alreay are.

That said, I do hear what you might be worried about starting right around the 3:30 mark and going from there as the trio slowly crescendos through the rest of the piece.

I do have a couple of suggestions that are not set in stone, but you might want to explore...

First, if I were riding the desk on this one, I'd be *really* inclined to seperate the instruments in pan space in the manner of many classic jazz trio recordings. Not any hard panning (except for maybe some stereo room reverb returns that you may have happening), but setting a soundstage as if the listener were in the audience of a smoke-filled jazz club. Something like piano maybe 35-50% left, bass up the middle and the stereo drum OHs tight-panned between about 30 and 60% right. Not only does this impart a classic jazz feel to the mix, but it would also help keep the drums from stepping on the piano without having to worry about the levels so much. This levels thing is especially important IMHO, because I don't think I'd want to sacrifice any more hat and brass from the drums just to satisfy the toms; I wouldn't want the cymbals much weaker.

Second, perhaps using a volume automation envelope on the drums across the entire piece, as the levels are dramatically different at the beginning and the end as the band puts more energy into their playing. Governing those levels over time with a gentle envelope slope - at least on the drums if not on the whole mix - may help tame the toms and snare a bit.

And, unrelated but worth mentioning; I'm not sure, but I think I heard some bad beat frequencies in a couple of the piano chords. It's always harder to tell with some of the oddball jazz chords, but I *think* maybe the piano might be in want of a fresh tuning. If you haven't had it tuned recently, then it moght be something to look into; if it has, then ignore this as being fooled by a couple of unexpected but intended jazz dissonances. .

But all in all, very nice work on both sides of the cables. A pleasure to review. Is it nice to hear something other than doubled and hard panned distortion guitars on these boards

HTH,

G.

[sweetnubs]

Tell the drummer not to hit the toms as hard. Fucking musicians nowadays, they want us to do the work they're supposed to be doing.

[sweetnubs]

That is of course you got your mics positioned right. Overheads, get 'em up high.

[slidey]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

Tell the drummer not to hit the toms as hard. Fucking musicians nowadays, they want us to do the work they're supposed to be doing.

couldn't agree more

I think I'll have a listen to the track now.................

[xistenz]

are you sure it's not your room that's making the toms jump out? they sound fine to me.

[Dani Pace]

Drums are tricky, I think of it this way... with drums you are not recording a single instrument, each drum and cymbal is a seperate instrument. Mic placement to record them all takes very carefull adjusting to find that sweet spot where everything is balanced. A few inches can make a big difference. Patience and experimentation are the only sure ways to find the best mic placement, and every drummer/drum set is different.
For what it's worth, I'd rather record a jazz drummer than some heavy handed rock star wanna be, it's a lot easier.

[funkydrummer]

Originally Posted by Dani Pace

Drums are tricky, I think of it this way... with drums you are not recording a single instrument, each drum and cymbal is a seperate instrument. Mic placement to record them all takes very carefull adjusting to find that sweet spot where everything is balanced. A few inches can make a big difference. Patience and experimentation are the only sure ways to find the best mic placement, and every drummer/drum set is different.
For what it's worth, I'd rather record a jazz drummer than some heavy handed rock star wanna be, it's a lot easier.

i look at drums the opposite way-- as one instrument. i love the way the other drums vibrate when you hit the one... when i think of people trying to isolate every piece of the drums, it's the same thing as mic'ing every string on an acoutic guitar and trying to figure out how to keep the G string out of the A string's mic.

anyway, for small combo jazz drums, you can get a great sound with one or two mics.