Should lyrics rhyme???

[mikeh]

I played drums on several tracks for a christian songwriter - and he finally completed the CD and I received a copy. Out of 12 songs, not a single one actually had lyrics that rhymed.

Maybe I'm too old school - but - I've always respected the craft of writing in which one uses clever rhymes and is able to tell the story within the confines of recognized writing confines (ie: rhymed words).

I was paid fairly and my recorded parts fit each song and were mixed well, so I'm not going to complain too much - but I found it so surprising that someone who considers himself a songwriter and was ambitious enough to record and market a CD (a CD that has no less than 30 different musicians - including horns, sitar, tabla, hand bells and a childrens choir - in addition to various guitaists, drummers, etc.) would not even attempt to rhyme a line or two.

Am I wrong???

[BlindMansColour]

With my style of writing, i agree with you on just about everything you said. However, to rhyme lines to the point where your just rhyming for the sake of rhyming, that ruins the feel of the lyrics. The best lyrics written, to me, are those that convey a powerful meaning in a way that is understandable, brief, sensable, and has a rhyme. For instance, TIME by Pink Floyd rhymes and has a theme that is genius. There is no forcing of words, the lyrics and melody flow perfectly. I admit myself that sometimes i just make words that rhyme with the line before it but really dont mean jack, then there are times when they just flow when i dont even have to really think about it, those are the real rhymes.

[ido1957]

I agree with you. I think most of the songs I've heard have lyrics that rhyme. That is the norm. Without the rhymes, it would seem lacking and leave me anticipating something that was missing.

[Nateman01]

I like both. I suppose that I like rhymes about 80% of the time and maybe throw in something that doesn’t rhyme. Some tunes, however sound like they need to have rhyme. I do like the idea of a cleverly crafted rhyme but I also think it’s clever to not rhyme from time to time. I hope that makes sense.

[philboyd studge]

For the most part the listener is seeking some sort of order when hearing a song lyric and rhyming puts those ducks in a row. There are variences though; first, close counts...you spareingly use words that are similar yet don't rhyme directly or use two words to get there to keep the flow. Other tools are to use imagery and/or a 'lyrical' melody...'Moonlight In Vermont' for instance.

[azraelswings]

It all depends on the song. Sometimes rhyming works, sometimes it doesn't. My favorite song (Third Eye Blind's "Motorcycle Driveby") doesn't rhyme at all. Other faves do. I guess all I'm saying is, you can pull good stuff off without rhyming.

[cephus]

I like for the rhymes to be a surprise or maybe undetectable(?) I love getting rhyme in where it goes by and sounds natural and doesn't distract the listener. Like "I feel so dirty when they start talking cute - I want to tell her that I love her but the point is probably moot" I think that is a terrible rhyme. It's completely for the sake of rhyming isn't it?

It's like as soon as you hear the word cute, your brain subconsciouly says "I wonder what he's gonna do to rhyme that."

It's just an example that popped into my head. I'm not a rick springfield fan.

Maybe he doesn't suck. I think that he did a much better job of using the word moot in a lyric than anyone who ever previously used the word moot.

[philboyd studge]

Originally Posted by cephus

I like for the rhymes to be a surprise or maybe undetectable(?) I love getting rhyme in where it goes by and sounds natural and doesn't distract the listener. Like "I feel so dirty when they start talking cute - I want to tell her that I love her but the point is probably moot" I think that is a terrible rhyme. It's completely for the sake of rhyming isn't it?

It's like as soon as you hear the word cute, your brain subconsciouly says "I wonder what he's gonna do to rhyme that."

It's just an example that popped into my head. I'm not a rick springfield fan.

Maybe he doesn't suck. I think that he did a much better job of using the word moot in a lyric than anyone who ever previously used the word moot.

The lines would work better inverted.....it's often better to put the crappy stuff up front.

[VomitHatSteve]

Probably one of the key things is to use natural grammar and structure and try to make it rhyme. If the only way to get something to rhyme is by using passive voice every other line, you probably shouldn't bother.

[Jahn]

One of the best rhyming pop tunes out there is "Up the Junction" by Squeeze. Just a relentless non-stop approach that keeps the rhyming structure simple, which reflects the blue-collar feel of the subject matter, but yet the words really carry truth in the emotions.

[KonradG]

Originally Posted by mikeh

I played drums on several tracks for a christian songwriter - and he finally completed the CD and I received a copy. Out of 12 songs, not a single one actually had lyrics that rhymed.

Maybe I'm too old school - but - I've always respected the craft of writing in which one uses clever rhymes and is able to tell the story within the confines of recognized writing confines (ie: rhymed words).

I was paid fairly and my recorded parts fit each song and were mixed well, so I'm not going to complain too much - but I found it so surprising that someone who considers himself a songwriter and was ambitious enough to record and market a CD (a CD that has no less than 30 different musicians - including horns, sitar, tabla, hand bells and a childrens choir - in addition to various guitaists, drummers, etc.) would not even attempt to rhyme a line or two.

Am I wrong???

Rhyming can kill a song, but it can also make it. When you rhyme a certain word, you have to know when to kill that rhyme and transition to the next. If you keep going too far on the same rhyme it drives me crazy.

Also, rhyming just on the last word is fucking BORING. No matter how clever it is, i dont want to have the last word of every line rhyme, because it gets old.

Listen to Deftones, Weezer, Norah Jones, Frank Sinatra, etc. they all seem to fit in what i like to call "subliminal rhyming" into some songs, where you cant pick out a definitive rhyme scheme. they blend and transition the rhymes to the dynamics of the song, and thats what most (including me) people forget about.

it also depends on the technique you use for writing.

do you write lyrics to a song?

do you match pre written lyrics to a pre recorded song

do you write songs to lyrics?

[mikeh]

I agree that trying to have 4 or six lines all with the same vowel tone (tree, free, see, be, me, etc) is both boring and an indication of poor craft. I do think that for the most part the last word of a line should have either a perfect or imperfect rhyme with some previous line (naturally there are fine examples of when this "rule" is not always followed). I too am a fan of internal rhymes within a line of a song and/or subtle rhymes.

While I agree that rhymes can kill a song (if the rymes are forced or rhyme just for the sake of a rhyme) well written rhymes do nothing but make a song better. By clever, I did not mean to imply cute but rather finding a clever way to tell the story while finding the right words and avoiding cliche rhymes.

Too often I see songs that manage to fit a certain amount of words into a bar (or whatever time phrase) but fail to follow time proven application of the craft of writing.

In the particular project I was hired to play on, a dozen songs had plenty of words which relayed the message the artist wanted to relay, but it showed little or not lyrical craft. Anyone can put a bunch of words together but to craft those words well, that is a seperate talent.

Maybe I'm too old school, but I look at some of the greatest songs ever written by writers from Tin Pan Alley, the Brill building, all the motown writers and or course Lennon & McCartney and I see people who respected and practised the craft of songwriting. That is what I aspire to.

[ido1957]

This reminds me of one of Avril's songs - really poor choice of rhymes - just repeats the word "dead" - it seems just for the sake of rhyming. Could have been more creative......I noticed how clunky this sounded the very first time I heard it on the radio.

My Happy Ending - Avril Lavigne

Let's talk this over
It's not like we're dead
Was it something I did?
Was it something You said?
Don't leave me hanging
In a city so dead
Held up so high
On such a breakable thread

[andydeedpoll]

this interests me - i generally prefer to listen/write lyrics where there is no rhyme, giving a more 'flowing' feel to the music.

two of my faveourite lyricists are Thom Yorke (Radiohead) and Guy Garvey (Elbow) i like the way that both of these writers write lyrics that tend to flow and merge... almost as if they're writing whole paragraphs, rather than individual lines. i'm forever trying to emulate this in my own writing .

i like to hear rhyme used very cleverly and specifically, to really bring out some very specific words. i also think they can add a wonderful sense of resolution to the end of a song, which can be intensified if rhyme isn't used during a song.

Andy

[Jahn]

I agree with the delivery being very important - hearing Frank Sinatra sing Cole Porter's "I Get a Kick Out of You" is just effortless, and wraps the clever rhyming in just the right rise and fall cadence...

I get no kick in a plane
Flying too high with some gal in the sky
Is my idea of nothing to do
But I get a kick out of you


The way it consistenly, powerfully builds in the second line with the conventional "fly" "high" "sky" just gets your blood pumping, but then...

The unconventional disassembling, the tumbling from the rhyme with the oddly placed "my" and "I"-d-"ea" (yes, the "ea" is also part of the remainder of the rhyme) until it ends with the malaise of "nothing to do"...and yet "to" and "do" rhyme and set you up for the hopeful kick in the last line. Tin Pan Alley knew how to write 'em!

[KonradG]

Originally Posted by Jahn

I agree with the delivery being very important - hearing Frank Sinatra sing Cole Porter's "I Get a Kick Out of You" is just effortless, and wraps the clever rhyming in just the right rise and fall cadence...

I get no kick in a plane
Flying too high with some gal in the sky
Is my idea of nothing to do
But I get a kick out of you


The way it consistenly, powerfully builds in the second line with the conventional "fly" "high" "sky" just gets your blood pumping, but then...

The unconventional disassembling, the tumbling from the rhyme with the oddly placed "my" and "I"-d-"ea" (yes, the "ea" is also part of the remainder of the rhyme) until it ends with the malaise of "nothing to do"...and yet "to" and "do" rhyme and set you up for the hopeful kick in the last line. Tin Pan Alley knew how to write 'em!

well put, i love that song!

i left a writer off of my list that deserves alot of credit for this type of rhyming and thats jimmy buffett. alot of people don't think hes too complex of a musician but if you look at his songs, they are brilliantly wrote. catchy and clever, but never cheesy.

[sweetpeee]

I guess it's obvious opinions vary as much as songs themselves. I like lyrics that rhyme. Some don't and still seem to do well...the music (or the freakin' video) carries the tune: "That's me in the corner...that's me in the spot light.." etc.

I think musician's tend to over analyze lyrics and how they should be written. Most people listening to them aren't musician's so my first thought on the subject is that lyrics should make sense. Some make sense only the the writer,but for me, I like to understand where the writer is coming from...a slice of their life I could see myself in. If you can paint a picture with lyrics and not drift off the subject, I don't care how many cliches you use, most people listening will relate to it in one way or another.

I also like some form of meter used. I don't like the way Rod Steward rhymes. He seems to follow some strange "rhyme here but not there" pattern. The song "Maggie" comes to mind.

I also think that no matter what is posted here, no matter what people say they dislike, someone could probably come up with at example of why it works

J.P.

[random.hero]

in general i think songs should rhyme...
its just the way you do it i guess

[rayc]

Often people avoid rhymes because they're difficult or use false rhymes for the same reason.
Rhyming can be hakneyed iin the hands of a hack. It's the freshness of approach that makes it work still. Elvis Costello's early & mid period stuff was clever clogs writing but it worked because of the freshness of his approach - lots of words, immense vocabulary etc.
Psychologically rhyming brings resolution in the same was as cadence, the same was as beginning & ending on the same note when writing in pentatonic C.
Where rhyming schemes are complex, (I Get a Kick...isn't too complex but is a good current sample) metre becomes as important. Again resolution meeting expectation. - think limerick with a dud last line.
personally I can cope with non rhyming verses but really long for some resolution - no matter how complex or drawn out - in a chorus.
I'm currently teaching poetry to 11/12 yr olds. They rhyme/false rhyme compulsively - it's what they're trained to expect. The lack of vocab & exposure to quality means that many write very poorly in rhyme though.
Teaching them impressionistic, descriptive poetry - haiku for example - stuff with strict metre but no rhyming actually develops their language skills better toward eventually writing good rhymes.
Exposing them to lyrics as poetry often works poorly due to the the lack of "craft" in many songs.
Reading translations of foreign language lyrics or poetry is often a good experience as it literally forces the brain to try to create a suitable rhyme - often unsuccessfully. Mental exercise.
Rhyming dictionaries are good if your vocab is up to the task.

[dwarf]

I really love the way maynard from tool rhymes. I have no examples but just listen and you'll see what I mean

[Nicole_Rose]

i am not a prolific songrwiter but i know three good writers. two of them are very good melodists and i notice that it's these two writers that don't seem to be confined to rhyming. they can make just about any phrases fit together by the melody they choose. when a melodist can do that it opens up the possiblities. no more choosing a word that isn't perfect, but is needed because it rhymes.

i find that songs that aren't stuck in a rhyme scheme are more melodically sophisticated. unfortuntaly i can't write at all without at least a simple rhyme scheme like abcb. lol.

[Dani Pace]

Maybe I'm a bit "old school" but the idea of rhyme is a part of the poetry of a song that makes it stick in your mind. We all remember silly little nursery rhymes for that reason. To me, it is the cleverness to "turn a phrase" so that the rhyme seems to be a natural part of the flow of the words, not just a rhyme for the sake of poetry that creates the rythmic ebb and flow that converts poetry to music. With that being said, I have to admitt that sometimes it is that line that leaves you hanging that really gives a song that something special, that a perfect rhyme just couldn't have done.
Poetry in and of itself can get pretty interesting if you consider that the rhyming syllable can be the third or fifth syllable of a line,(or any other,) it doesn't have to be the last one. Or that the rhyme can be from verse to verse rather than from line to line. The poetic part has more possibilities than many people realize.

[Mindset]

maybe it's just me, or I really am, but I'm performing & producing hip-hop (not the i'm rich and women are all sluts type) but anyways, I write to rhyme many times, I've tried to change it up so that way people don't get boring of the same kind of song to the next. here's one of my rhymes....


there's only one chance and one life to live/
but plenty choices to choose and one god to forgive/
ain't nobody in this world is going to listen close/
so here's a toast to those who haven't given me hope/
as these days go on, it's getting harder to sleep at night/
it's like a fight on the mic and i'm breathing it life/
another struggle not to miss my only chance to hold on/
and then I loose my grip, and get stiff like a cold arm/
but from god's wisdom that he passed to you/
the kingdom's strengh to push all these mountains that I move/
so as time goes on, i realize that things change/
it's still all strange how we made it out the game/
if you pick up the pace, god'll give you a taste/
god gave me his world on top of a silver plate/
and if I can't get first, I won't settle for second place/
I've put a lot on the line, so i'mma do what it takes/


I know to yall, it probably has no meaning & no point to it at all, but to me, it did when I was writing it?

[ido1957]

Originally Posted by Mindset

maybe it's just me, or I really am, but I'm performing & producing hip-hop (not the i'm rich and women are all sluts type) but anyways, I write to rhyme many times, I've tried to change it up so that way people don't get boring of the same kind of song to the next. here's one of my rhymes....


there's only one chance and one life to live/
but plenty choices to choose and one god to forgive/
ain't nobody in this world is going to listen close/
so here's a toast to those who haven't given me hope/
as these days go on, it's getting harder to sleep at night/
it's like a fight on the mic and i'm breathing it life/
another struggle not to miss my only chance to hold on/
and then I loose my grip, and get stiff like a cold arm/
but from god's wisdom that he passed to you/
the kingdom's strengh to push all these mountains that I move/
so as time goes on, i realize that things change/
it's still all strange how we made it out the game/
if you pick up the pace, god'll give you a taste/
god gave me his world on top of a silver plate/
and if I can't get first, I won't settle for second place/
I've put a lot on the line, so i'mma do what it takes/


I know to yall, it probably has no meaning & no point to it at all, but to me, it did when I was writing it?

Nice rhyming, not exact rhymes but similar vowel sounds that allow you to use a larger variety of words.

[Jahn]

Before anyone jumps on his Rap by saying A/B with words that don't even perfectly rhyme isn't legit, let me point you to "Up the Junction" by Squeeze, which uses this exact form/structure, and carries it powerfully (i think i mentioned this song previously)-

I never thought it would happen
With me and the girl from clapham
Out on a windy common
That night I aint forgotten
When she dealt out the rations
With some or other passions
I said you are a lady
Perhaps she said I may be
We moved into a basement
With thoughts of our engagement
We stayed in by the telly
Although the room was smelly
We spent our time just kissing
The railway arms were missing
But love had got us hooked up
And all our time it took up

I got a job with stanley
He said Id come in handy
And started me on monday
So I had a bath on sunday
I worked eleven hours
And bought the girl some flowers
She said shed seen a doctor
And nothing now could stop her

I worked all through the winter
The weather brass and bitter
I put away a tenner
Each week to make her better
And when the time was ready
We had to sell the telly
Late evenings by the fire
With little kicks inside her

This morning at 4:50
I took her rather nifty
Down to an incubator
Where thirty minutes later
She gave birth to a daughter
Within a year a walker
She looked just like her mother
If there could be another

And now shes two years older
Her mothers with a soldier
She left me when my drinking
Became a proper stinging
The devil came and took me
From bar to street to bookie
No more nights by the telly
No more nights nappies smelling

Alone here in the kitchen
I feel theres something missing
Id beg for some forgiveness
But beggings not my business
And she wont write a letter
Although I always tell her
And so its my assumption
Im really up the junction