What to use for my room surfaces

[Seeker of Rock]

First off, I need to contain the sound from leaking out to the neighbors' houses as best I can. So right now, I plan on putting in a concrete sub-base poured in place slab, with wood floor joists and wood flooring on top for the floor. Walls, well the structure is made out of concrete block. I plan on 2x4 studs laid flat with drywall. Ceiling is still up in the air, either wood or drywall, treated, semi-treated, or bare wood. Give me your thoughts. This is only a 13' x 14' interior space after wood and drywall. See the floor plan and draft equipment layout on the "let me see your studio" thread if you want. Setting rebar in the foundation forms tomorrow and weather permitting, will start concrete for the foundation footing. Just trying to think ahead on what materials I would want to use for this space....better to plan ahead than not.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Setting rebar in the foundation forms tomorrow and weather permitting, will start concrete for the foundation footing

Hmmm, are you isolating the slab from the footing by resiliant filler? Thats the only way you will create a complete two leaf DECOUPLED system, REGARDLESS of the rest of the room. Without seeing your detailing plan, its hard to say what you need to address, although I think you MAY be putting the cart before the horse. You might want to check this thread out. Many many conditions to think about BEFORE laying rebar.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...2ef75d27fe29ca

[Seeker of Rock]

Thanks for the links. I am an architect by profession, so rebar placement and structural design have already been accounted for. What I haven't dealt with in experience is the actual detailed acoustics of design for recording purposes. That is what I am seeking right now, not building advice...thanks for the heads up though.

Edit: I am pouring the sub-floor slab for sound isolation, noting structural. The wood floor will be suspended wood joists, suspended to negate moisture contact with the concrete slab (capillary effect, concrete is porous and draws moisture, wood and moisture is not a good combination) So there will be a little breathing room between the wood floor joists and the slab, the slab namely to minimize vibrations coming from the floor into the ground. Even though concrete carries vibration, it will serve as a buffer from the sound coming from the room floor before it ultimately goes into the ground.

Edit again, I guess I was vague earlier on the reinforcing bars....1 (one) #5 bar continuous along the footing, 2" below with #5 "j" bars at each corner (columns) and #5 bars drilled and placed doweld to the footing of the existing structure.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I am an architect by profession, so rebar placement and structural design have already been accounted for.

Thats not what I was referring to. I was only suggesting that the possibility exists, architect or not, that your familiarity with Transmission Loss may be less than informed. Especially after your statement regarding using a "suspended wood floor above the slab", which in effect creates a big drum head and a resonant chamber below Hence the link. I have no interest in your skill or experience with rebar or structural elements. I was only suggesting it for the sake of hindsight being 20/20 when it comes to intuition vs isolation construction.

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Many many conditions to think about BEFORE laying rebar.
]

This is what I was responding to. And yes there are conditions to think about, but rebar is in the structural design of the the foundation footing and how it will strengthen the footing bearing the load of the cbs walls and roof, not what I am asking about. I am not asking how to reinforce my foundation, simply about details once the structure is built, and if you think rebar placement has more to do with whether I should pour a slab beneath suspended wood joists or place the joists directly on the slab, then please advise.

Horse before the carriage....not really. I have the parameters determined in what I can physically work with and what I am building. Perhaps I wasn't clear on that and I apologize if I wasn't. But given I have a definitive space planned for my structure, and follow me here, the structure will be 12.5' x 13.5 interior space, and that is what I have to work with. I guess what I am may be looking for is any experience in floor construction for a studio. I noted the existing thread on this, but it doesn't cover my particular situation so I though I would post this thread to see if anyone had experience with floors...not so much what to treat them with, but actual constructive 'sections' that may or may not work well. Again, I think placing a slab beneath the floor joists, just by knowing masonry properties, would seem to add another level of containment before the vibrations enter the ground which I do not ultimately wish to have.

And beyond that, I am just looking for a little advice down the road on what type of materials I may want to use for the interior. Again, taking the appropriate steps, first thing is getting the actual shell built, and I have little choice but to build the size and shape I have. Understand better now?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

My statement had to do with structurally COUPLING the footing with the slab. Most studio designers DECOUPLE them with a resiliant spacer. Hence, no structural transmission from slab to OUTER leaf. Thats all. Good luck.

[Innovations]

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/floors.html

These guys sell some great isolation materials for floors (and walls and ceilings too)

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

My statement had to do with structurally COUPLING the footing with the slab. Most studio designers DECOUPLE them with a resiliant spacer. Hence, no structural transmission from slab to OUTER leaf. Thats all. Good luck.

Gotcha. Was just thrown off on the rebar statement, because on a poured floor slab you would normally have 4" thick and WWM(F)1010 or 1212. My slab is will be for support of the floor joists maybe, or maybe separated from the bottom of the joists. I guess that is what I am looking for an opinion on.

So you say even if there is a slab beneath and not in direct contact with the floor joists, to buffer the slab where it connects with the foundation? Makes sense to me if I go with the joists laid on the slab route, instead of being suspended. Even if the floor is suspended, I still may get vibrations carrying down the walls where the slab would connect, and that would be where I use a resiliant connector. Not familiar with a resiliant connector...any advice on what I should look for? If I do the suspended floor with sub0slab, it sounds like I may want to go that route. I would have a free-standing slab if not connected, so I would have to anchor with posts or have compacted a base pretty well, but I guess I could do that.

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by Innovations

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/floors.html

These guys sell some great isolation materials for floors (and walls and ceilings too)

Thanks, man. Rigid fiberglass...no kidding? I've heard it mentioned a lot here. Never would have guessed that one, but if it is what I should use, then I will order some when the time comes for interior work. Thanks for the tip

[Innovations]

Originally Posted by Seeker of Rock

Gotcha. Was just thrown off on the rebar statement, because on a poured floor slab you would normally have 4" thick and WWM(F)1010 or 1212. My slab is will be for support of the floor joists maybe, or maybe separated from the bottom of the joists. I guess that is what I am looking for an opinion on.

So you say even if there is a slab beneath and not in direct contact with the floor joists, to buffer the slab where it connects with the foundation? Makes sense to me if I go with the joists laid on the slab route, instead of being suspended. Even if the floor is suspended, I still may get vibrations carrying down the walls where the slab would connect, and that would be where I use a resiliant connector. Not familiar with a resiliant connector...any advice on what I should look for? If I do the suspended floor with sub0slab, it sounds like I may want to go that route. I would have a free-standing slab if not connected, so I would have to anchor with posts or have compacted a base pretty well, but I guess I could do that.

Well, what the kinetics site would recommend would be not so much joists but sleepers laid over a serries of their isolation pads. the inner stud wall would rest on the raised floor (with isolation pads closer together for the extra weight of the wall. Then a similar story for the ceiling. Just keep saying 'box within a box' like a mantra. Your goal would be to have all of the connections between the inner box and the outer box be through vibration isolators.

The slab and the foundation are all part of the outer box. There is no need to isolate the slab from the foundation, only to isolate it from the inner box, which is what the isolation pads are for.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Just keep saying 'box within a box' like a mantra. Your goal would be to have all of the connections between the inner box and the outer box be through vibration isolators.

Hmmmmm, where did he say it was going to be a "room within a room" assembly? Here is what was described

I plan on putting in a concrete sub-base poured in place slab, with wood floor joists and wood flooring on top for the floor. Walls, well the structure is made out of concrete block. I plan on 2x4 studs laid flat with drywall.

From that description, it tells me the FLOOR ASSEMBLY, would structurally tie directly to the slab, in turn couple with CONCRETE BLOCK outer leaf walls, with 2x4 furring/drywall. In this whole description, I see NO decoupling from inner leaf to outer leaf. What I was trying to tell him, was decouple the slab from the footing for the concrete block outer leaf, build a complete inner leaf on the decoupled slab. No need for a wood diaphram floor. What would be the purpose? This comes from direct information from an infrequent member here who IS an engineer, and pro studio builder with MANY studios under his belt. If you read the WHOLE thread I linked to, you can read RODS advice. However, the use of a decoupled inner floor leaf is used in many circumstances. But building a TRUE floating floor/room, is absolutely expensive, and requires MUCHO calculations of weight/compression values for the isolators carrying this weight, as only when the isolators are put into the correct compression will they decouple correctly.

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by RICK FITZPATRICK

Hmmmmm, where did he say it was going to be a "room within a room" assembly? Here is what was described
From that description, it tells me the FLOOR ASSEMBLY, would structurally tie directly to the slab, in turn couple with CONCRETE BLOCK outer leaf walls, with 2x4 furring/drywall. In this whole description, I see NO decoupling from inner leaf to outer leaf. What I was trying to tell him, was decouple the slab from the footing for the concrete block outer leaf, build a complete inner leaf on the decoupled slab. No need for a wood diaphram floor. What would be the purpose? This comes from direct information from an infrequent member here who IS an engineer, and pro studio builder with MANY studios under his belt. If you read the WHOLE thread I linked to, you can read RODS advice. However, the use of a decoupled inner floor leaf is used in many circumstances. But building a TRUE floating floor/room, is absolutely expensive, and requires MUCHO calculations of weight/compression values for the isolators carrying this weight, as only when the isolators are put into the correct compression will they decouple correctly.

Rick, I appreciate your and everyone else's input. I gotcha on the decoupled slab, and what you say makes sense. If I do a slab it will be isolated from the walls then as a free standing unit on a compacted agg. base. Why I wanted a conc. subfloor was for soundproofing. Alot of sand where I live, which begings about 18" below the topsoil. The subfloor slab I think would significantly reduce the level of sound traveling from the floor into the ground where it could be audible by my neighbors. I had read that wood flooring in general is a good floor treatment for tracking and/or mixing. If I don't need it and can go with a concrete floor, then absolutely that would be the less expensive and labor-intensive way.

[Dani Pace]

I'm not getting into the floor thing, if it were me, I'd be more concerned with the sound transmission through the walls and mostly through the celing. You mentioned concrete walls (I assume you mean cinder block) and a wood celing. Fill the internal space of the blocks with vermiculite, this will both insulate and help dampen sound transmission. Overhead sound transmission may be your biggest problem. Double thickness dry wall will stop a lot more sound than wood, and don't forget to put lots of insulation above the celing. Another thing to consider is doors and windows. Heavy, solid doors which seal thoroughly are a must, double doors for even more sound reduction. Windows are almost impossible to "soundproof." Triple paine vaccum windows are best for this. Additional panels of rigid fiberglass to fit into window spaces will help reguardless of what type window you have. Don't forget to seal around all electrical outlets and fight fixtures. I hope some of these tips help, keep us posted on your progress.