When to give credits to musicians?

[Jacket]

I am a songwriter, I have written about 30 songs to this day. I have whole melodies and lyrics. Now I want to found a band and I expect musicians to play their own riffs - e.g. guitarist, piano player, I will give them my songs and they will play instruments in it.
I would like to know where is the boundary to give them credits or not? For example if piano player will make a 10 seconds overture, should he be credited? Or guitarist who will create a 20 seconds intermezzo according to my chords?
I want to be fair, but I don't want to give credits for something, what is self-evident. Where is the boundary?
Thanks for your opinions.

[cephus]

Fricking Madonna whistles a tune to her producer and her albums say "All songs written by Madonna". Did you ever see Beatles songs that say Lennon-McCartney-Martin?

If you write the melody and the lyrics, it's 100% your song. Introductions and solo sections are arrangement.

[Jacket]

Thank you for reply - you are right with the Beatles. Maybe only when guitarist makes some significant intermezzo, which is important for the song, maybe then.

[Track Rat]

On the other hand, if the guitar player comes up with a hook to fly over your chords and that hook becomes the part of song that makes it "catchy", then he should get a writing credit.

[mikeh]

Sometimes the line between song writing vs. arrangement can be fine indeed.

Normally, musicians simply get performance "acknowlwedgement" (such an liner notes) vs. songwriting credit. I have no doubt some of the most significant hooks in pop history were never credited to the people who "wrote" those hooks.

That being said, I agree with Track Rat - if a musician (or producer) adds something to a song that becomes the essence of the song, they deserve partial writing credit.

[cephus]

I don't think credit should be volunteered. In the music biz, it's the songwriter who gets the $$$. Someone insisting on getting a piece of the publishing dollar is one thing, but to offer it up to a guy who played a lick you liked in the basement is probably not the way to go.

For the record, I think that Modonna's producer and George Martin should have gotten writing credit for their contributions. It's just not done that way.

[Nicole_Rose]

when you're not madonna it is done that way. full credit where credit is due.

performance credits for people who play on, but do not significantly alter the music or lyrics, and songwriting credits for those who make truly significant contributions to the song itself making it become more than it was.

and if they contributed but not enough to get a writing credit, then an official thank you in the credits area.

anyway that's the way i operate. it's a moral issue with me and i like to give credit where credit is due. but don't go giving away songwriting credits unless it's truly deserved.

nr

[J.C. Scott]

So if you hum a song you hear in your head and they just flesh it out, they don't necessarily get writing credits if they instituted the melody you're relaying to them without adding anything creative.

[Chris Shaeffer]

Is there any money at stake here, really? Are your RECORDING that stuff to sell or just playing out?

If its all monopoly money... just get on with your bad selves and play.

If you are recording for sales and distribution and concerned about paying your musicians fairly... talk about it with them up front. You can either pay them a flat fee for their time, or they can do it on spec and get a few cents for each part they play on the album (each instrument on each song) for each album you sell. (good lucking keeping track of all that crap...). Make sure its clear up front, and in writing, so there is no misunderstanding later. Make good and live up to your side of the agreement if you do make some money.

Then get on with your bad selves, play the damn music and don't worry about the imaginary cash you'll all be making. I know idiots who have lost friendships and are still bitter over arguements about writing credits on music that not a SINGLE other soul in the universe gave a rats ass about.

Hopefully that's not you and you have wonderful songs that will soon be lining the pockets of you and your musicians!! Good luck.

-C

[cephus]

Wow, I thought Chris was an attorney. Now I see that is the other guy whose handle is his whole name.

If you write, you really should get the credit thing established. I think it is a huge mistake not to anticipate future markets for music. even if you think you'll never get a record deal in the traditional sense, your music can be exposed to so many potential consumers through the internet.

I was wondering one thing, though. There is a new song that I heard on the radio that heavily samples "Tainted Love" by soft cell. No lyrics, just the weird keyboard sounds and the bass line. This is interesting as far as rights on many levels.

Firstly, the song is a cover Written by Ed Cobb for Gloria Jones in the 60s (Soft cell quotes "where did our love go" by the supremes too). However, none of the lyrics or really chord changes are sampled for the new song. Only the wierd analog keyboard noises. I wonder who got the $$$ and who had to grant permission. I suspect that the publishing company that held the rights to the original version (Ed Cobb) was the party that got paid, but truly the guy who is responsible for what was sampled was either the keyboard player(s) for soft cell or the producer of the record.

If Ed Cobb got paid, his original composition may have been just lyrics and chord changes banged out on an acoustic guitar, but it is conceivable that he started getting checks again for it.

I think this is the song:
Rhianna's sampled this on her 2006 song "S.O.S (Rescue Me)."

[lump]

Personaly I have always written all the lyrics and written the rythm guitar track when I present it for arrangement.
That being said I offer the band an equal split on any performance money we earn less our expenses since it takes nearly equal effort to gig.
But for any marketing or future sales for jingles, soundtracks, recording deals, etc.. each would earn his instrument credits and I would take credit for the words and music, rythm guitar and part of the arrangement, at least on the originals I have written, two other guys in the band also write and present a similiar sample for arrangement with rythm and lyrics and a basic format.
On those I would accept part arrangement credits but thats about it, even if I write a bridge or chorus, unless it becomes the bulk of the song.
Lump

[VomitHatSteve]

Originally Posted by cephus

Wow, I thought Chris was an attorney. Now I see that is the other guy whose handle is his whole name.

If you write, you really should get the credit thing established. I think it is a huge mistake not to anticipate future markets for music. even if you think you'll never get a record deal in the traditional sense, your music can be exposed to so many potential consumers through the internet.

I was wondering one thing, though. There is a new song that I heard on the radio that heavily samples "Tainted Love" by soft cell. No lyrics, just the weird keyboard sounds and the bass line. This is interesting as far as rights on many levels.

Firstly, the song is a cover Written by Ed Cobb for Gloria Jones in the 60s (Soft cell quotes "where did our love go" by the supremes too). However, none of the lyrics or really chord changes are sampled for the new song. Only the wierd analog keyboard noises. I wonder who got the $$$ and who had to grant permission. I suspect that the publishing company that held the rights to the original version (Ed Cobb) was the party that got paid, but truly the guy who is responsible for what was sampled was either the keyboard player(s) for soft cell or the producer of the record.

If Ed Cobb got paid, his original composition may have been just lyrics and chord changes banged out on an acoustic guitar, but it is conceivable that he started getting checks again for it.

I think this is the song:
Rhianna's sampled this on her 2006 song "S.O.S (Rescue Me)."

Potentially, the check could go to whoever had the most expensive lawyer.

I would think that the owner of the SR copyright of soft-cell's recording would get the money. They copyrighted the recording that was sampled if not the actual song.

[jpw23]

Originally Posted by Jacket

I am a songwriter, I have written about 30 songs to this day. I have whole melodies and lyrics. Now I want to found a band and I expect musicians to play their own riffs - e.g. guitarist, piano player, I will give them my songs and they will play instruments in it.
I would like to know where is the boundary to give them credits or not? For example if piano player will make a 10 seconds overture, should he be credited? Or guitarist who will create a 20 seconds intermezzo according to my chords?
I want to be fair, but I don't want to give credits for something, what is self-evident. Where is the boundary?
Thanks for your opinions.

Most musicians are hired guns and thats that.....if their lucky, they get their name on an album cover.

[andydeedpoll]

i know with my band, i'm very aware of the fact that they add an awful lot to the overall musical sound. i remember with a specific song, humming what i thought maybe her line should be playing, her looking at me anxiously and saying "i like it. but This is better..." ten seconds later i was giving her half the credit for the song, i felt she'd added that much to it. quite often i'll just give her some chords and she'll work something magical out of them.

but then again, the band i play in isn't "Andrew Dey and his band", it's quite definetly a group of five of us, and a song's only complete when we've all pitched in. i know sodall about writing drum parts for example, and i only give a very general brief to our drummer, unless i have a very specific idea in my head, which is generally nicked from another song by another band anyway... "y'know what that drummer does in that song? yeah? do that." :P i 'write' 90% of the material for our band. but the final songs are all "by the Deed Poll."

Andy

[Dogman]

I just simply state whatever anyone does on a certain track....It doesn't matter to me who gets credit...just letting a listener know who did waht part....