recording volume

[Yvon]

When I record my guitar or my bass, the recording volume in AA 1.5 is quite low. I would like to record a little bit louder.
My rig consist of:
BOSS ME-50B (bypass)
I use it to go in the computer sound card
M-audio 24/96 sound card
Guitar rig
AA 1.5

I set all the volume as high as I can, but the recording volume in AA is still low.

Is there any way to adjust the recording volume in AA?

[thajeremy]

you can go to Effects > Amplitude > Amplify/fade and increase the volume here....however, If I were you, Id put some type of pre amp between the boss and soundcard....

do you have a mixer???

[Yvon]

Originally Posted by thajeremy

you can go to Effects > Amplitude > Amplify/fade and increase the volume here....however, If I were you, Id put some type of pre amp between the boss and soundcard....

do you have a mixer???

I have a small behringer mixer /eurotack UB502. That I use for monitoring purpose only.
I think I will need an upgrade soon.

[Massive Master]

Let's define "low" here first -

If the "meat" of the signal is riding around -18, -20dBFS or so, that's not "low" - That's "proper and correct."

[JoeyPazera]

either, go to effects and amplify every track, I use 2.0, and on that i would just go to the mixer and bump it up a couple notches.

[Yvon]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

Let's define "low" here first -

If the "meat" of the signal is riding around -18, -20dBFS or so, that's not "low" - That's "proper and correct."

This is what it look like:

http://yvongravel.googlepages.com/AA.JPG

[Farview]

Originally Posted by Yvon

This is what it look like:

http://yvongravel.googlepages.com/AA.JPG

It doesn't matter what it looks like. What do the meters say? Your picture doesn't have a scale on it.

[RideTheCrash]

I'm curious about this myself.

Say I have a snare track. The 'meat' should be around -18? Damn, mine must be up at like 3dB! I assume this is so I have more headroom to play with?

So I want to record a nice 'hot' signal, but only have it show up at like -18 in CEP?

[dobro]

Ask Massive what he means by 'meat'. Oh never mind, I'll do it.

Mr Massive: what do you mean by the 'meat' of the track being at -18 dB? And how do you calculate that with Cool/Audition?

[Massive Master]

The "meat" - the "bulk" - the RMS for lack of a better term. 0dBVU on the VU meters (if there are any). That should give you around -18dBFS.

Hard to establish with snare and kick hits due to the extreme transient, so in those cases *even lower* would be the norm. But considering the transients, digital peaks around -12 should give put you in the ballpark if you're working with fairly decent preamps. Lower if they're more "budget friendly" units.

So I want to record a nice 'hot' signal, but only have it show up at like -18 in CEP?

-18dBFS *IS* a nice "hot" signal. THAT'S A NORMAL INPUT LEVEL (where do people come up with this "overdrive the preamp" stuff?!? Honestly!!! Where did it start?!?). 0dBFS is anywhere from around 18 to 22dB *OVER* -0dBVU (which is where the preamp is designed to work). That's not how the system was designed...

For the uninitiated, you WILL NOT get "louder" recordings by recording levels that are too hot. For the most part, the added distortion and lack of focus will make it so your recording won't have the potential to handle "commercial" levels when it's finished (as "commercial" CD's weren't tracked with their input levels all 18dB into the headroom of the preamps causing noise and distortion on every single track).

You WILL however get MUCH better sounding mixes (that will handle the "abuse" in the mastering stage FAR better) if you track using "normal" levels.

Go on - Experiment. Record something really hot and then recording the same thing using -18dBFS = 0dBVU. Mix them both using the same scale.

Then ram them both into a limiter.

The one recorded with "normal" levels will easily sound better, clearer, less noisy, less "pinched" in the stereo image, etc., than the one with the "hot" levels.

[ikon]

^^ok a question regarding that....what if i donwload a beat for instance just to practice this....now all im ading is vocal work and maybe some special effect to the track that is already made (wich is one track) do i leave the track where it is and ram just my vocals into a limiter to match or do i bring down the overall volume of the track (beat), or do i do like a reverse limiter type trick so that i make my vocals match easier? (if you understand what i mean)

[RideTheCrash]

Makes sense. I just always read "record as hot as you can, without clipping". I guess that is exactly why when I do mixdown of drums they peak like nuts.

I downloaded some tracks from an article in ProRec, and I noticed the snare tracks for example, all peak at -12.

Thanks.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by ikon

^^ok a question regarding that....what if i donwload a beat for instance just to practice this....now all im ading is vocal work and maybe some special effect to the track that is already made (wich is one track) do i leave the track where it is and ram just my vocals into a limiter to match or do i bring down the overall volume of the track (beat), or do i do like a reverse limiter type trick so that i make my vocals match easier? (if you understand what i mean)

I'm a little lost - You adjust the mix to the proper volume and then record the tracks at the proper volume... The two aren't really related...

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by RideTheCrash

Makes sense.

You've just entered a larger Universe. Seriously. Your recordings are about to increase in quality by leaps and bounds.

[dobro]

"Go on - Experiment. Record something really hot and then recording the same thing using -18dBFS = 0dBVU. Mix them both using the same scale.

Then ram them both into a limiter."

John, what happens if you don't hard limit much? Up until now, I've recorded pretty hot, with peaks hitting between -6 and -3 dB on the Cool Edit meter. But after I mixdown all the tracks into a stereo file, I usually hard limit the whole thing anwhere from 2 to 5 dB.

I think my question's this: if you don't hard limit the final result a lot, then recording level isn't such an issue, right?

[Farview]

Originally Posted by dobro

I think my question's this: if you don't hard limit the final result a lot, then recording level isn't such an issue, right?

Wrong.
When you record too hot, you are cooking your preamps, the analog circuitry in your converters, etc... This leads to poor signal to noise ratio, distortion of the transients (detail), and most of the time a 'pinched', small sound.


What everyone seems to have trouble wrapping their head around is the idea of average level.
The VU meter on most analog devises is relatively slow. It doesn't show you all the peaks, it shows you the average level. You should set that level at 0dbVU. 0dbVU= -20dbFS in your computer. You are shooting for your average (not peak) level in the computer to be around -20dbFS. So you have to stop looking at the peaks and start looking at what parts of the meter are lit up all the time.

With distorted guitars and other things that aren't very dynamic, it will be pretty obvious. With drums, it's another story. A safe bet is just to make sure that nothing EVER goes above -6dbFS

One or two transient peaks that get up to -2dbfs isn't going to hurt anything, but when the entire track is burning along at -0.1dbfs, you are just screwing yourself.

[travelin travis]

So, would this still apply to a project that only has a few tracks? Say a vocal and a couple of acoustic guitar tracks? I'll admit, I've always recorded as hot as possible without crossing 0 db on my software meters. I guess that's one area in which I just accepted what I was told and never experimented on my own. I'll also admit that I'm guilty of spreading what I was told about recording levels. Thanks for the info Massive Master and Farview. "Leaps and bounds?". I hope so.

[RideTheCrash]

So is the whole "recording in the mud" thing, not true?

So the signal on my mixer should read -18 and so should Cool Edit, right? I guess I'm just not used to seeing such small waveforms in Cool Edit.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by RideTheCrash

So the signal on my mixer should read -18 and so should Cool Edit, right?

NO. The mixer and cool edit are using two different scales.

The mixer is dbVU
Cool edit is dbFS

0dbVU (on your mixer) = -18dbFS (in cool edit)

[RideTheCrash]

Ohhh, okay. What does "dBFS" stand for? I know dB = decibel. I assume VU is as in VU meters. Mind you my board has an LED meter.

[travelin travis]

Originally Posted by RideTheCrash

Ohhh, okay. What does "dBFS" stand for? I know dB = decibel. I assume VU is as in VU meters. Mind you my board has an LED meter.

dbFS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBFS

dbVU: http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_.../teces_06.html

[Farview]

VU= volume units
FS= Full Scale

A VU meter isn't just a thing with a needle. It is a meter with particular balistics. (how fast the meter reacts to signal) The VU scale is always centered around line level. No mater whether line level is +4 or -10, the VU meters zero point will be that level

Peak meters are very fast and are scaled in negative numbers. There is no digital signal above 0dbfs, so there is no need to have positive numbers. 0dbFS is the abosolute limit to the level of signal that can be expressed digitally.

Line level (the level every piece of equipment was designed to run at) = 0dbVU = -20dbFS.

It is a little more complicated than that, but these are the basics

[StephenGiles]

I think you will get considerably better recordings by not using stupid jargon that nobody can understand.

[Massive Master]

Anybody who doesn't understand that particular jargon has no business recording anything and then asking why it "doesn't sound pro" in the first place.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by StephenGiles

I think you will get considerably better recordings by not using stupid jargon that nobody can understand.

You don't have to know what the jargon means, you just have to realize the relationship between the meters on analog equipment versus digital equipment. It's just like not confusing the type of connectors on a cable with the type of signal it carries. These are just really fundamental things that everyone needs to know.