Mixing Drums

[jazzbass12]

Hi,
Having a tough time mixing drums. My OH are picking up too much of the whole kit.. Ex: I hear the snare in the center and where ever the OH are panned too. Sam with HAT.. it causing a chorising-reverb-delay type effect.
Using Rode nt3 for OH.

Cant seem to isolate...

Kick-CTR
SNARE-CTR
HAT-50% left
tom 1-75% let
tom 2 -10%Right
Floor - 75% Right
OH 1- 100% left
OH 2- 100% right

I have tried different pan settings and same thing.

Any thoughts??

[FALKEN]

placement, placement, placement.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by jazzbass12

My OH are picking up too much of the whole kit..

That's sort of the point of using overheads.

Like Falken said, placement, placement...


Read this, then read it again.

After that sit back down and read it once more.

[punkin]

Turn off all the other mics...just use the OH's. You should get most of the kit sound with the OH's and, it should sound good when done properly. What is your set up for the OH's...X/Y or other?

Only after you get a good sounding over-head only set up, would I suggest adding the extra snare(s), then the kick and then the tom mics.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by jazzbass12

Hi,
Having a tough time mixing drums. My OH are picking up too much of the whole kit.. Ex: I hear the snare in the center and where ever the OH are panned too. Sam with HAT.. it causing a chorising-reverb-delay type effect.
Using Rode nt3 for OH.

Cant seem to isolate...

Kick-CTR
SNARE-CTR
HAT-50% left
tom 1-75% let
tom 2 -10%Right
Floor - 75% Right
OH 1- 100% left
OH 2- 100% right

I have tried different pan settings and same thing.

Any thoughts??

Like EZ said, that's what overheads are for. If you're getting a weird "effect", that's probably phase cancellation. You might want to try getting rid of the tom mics. You can get a great drum recording with 4 mics and have less phase issues to deal with.
Read the article EZ posted and as many other articles on recording that you can.

[cello_pudding]

^^^^ agree 100%

[breaktheground]

Dude seriously, don't count on articles telling you there's a standard way of recording drums (or any instruments for that matter).

Every drumkit/drummer combination is completely different from the next. Time and experimentation is the only way to get what you want.

If there's too much kit in the OH's, move angle the mics away from the skins but still aimed at the back of the cymbals (lots of metal engineers do this, as they like the idea of extreme separation in mic sources).

Just use common sense mang.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by breaktheground

Dude seriously, don't count on articles telling you there's a standard way of recording drums (or any instruments for that matter).

"Standard articles" are real helpful in teaching things like phase cancellation and mic selection considerations, and placement for that matter. Things that aren't so obvious.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by breaktheground

Dude seriously

Ah yes, two words that go together like "Jumbo shrimp", "Senate ethics" and "Watermelon and mayonnaise".

jazzbass, read that article and cut down on the number of mics. You only have one drum kit to record.

G.

[mixsit]

Wouldn't you guys consider a close miced kit as another way to get there? In which case he would want them to be 'cymbal mics and not call them overheads or 'kit mics for now to keep the semantics lined up.

[punkin]

I suppose...I mean if you're planning to close mice everything but then you get back into the bleed-over problem again. If the OH's are going to be cymbal mics then he needs to get the mics placed directly over and close to the cymbals. This approach is not my favorite and has been the most problematic for me.

I prefer an X/Y overhead arrangement with a tight snare (sometimes two), one maybe two on the kick (one inside and one out close to the beater) and depending upon the effect, I might close mic the toms but, those would would be just for supplementary to the OH's.

I prefer to get the best over-all sound with the OH's, then add the snare...listen to it...get it just right, then add the kick and so on and so on.

[jmorris]

Here is a sample of a very openly miced drum kit.It a jazz band I recorded live in a club a few months back.It shows how the toms will cut through. It has yet to be properly mixed but you'll get the idea.The setup is 2 overheads and kick and snare just to supliment. I agree with everyone here that you will be suprised how nice a result you will get once your overheads are place where they should be.Go to this link and click on the music sample. The tune starts out with drums, then the band comes in. As they say sometimes less is more.

http://24tracklive.com/

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by punkin

I suppose...I mean if you're planning to close mice everything but then you get back into the bleed-over problem again. If the OH's are going to be cymbal mics then he needs to get the mics placed directly over and close to the cymbals. This approach is not my favorite and has been the most problematic for me.

Yes, and I'm going to give myself a C- on that other post for not well serving JazzBass's original question.
Wayne

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by jazzbass12

My OH are picking up too much of the whole kit..

Wow. Imagine that.

[killmachine]

It all depends on what your after. Myself personally like a lot of the whole kit sound in my overheads I think it helps allow for much more room sound and thus a wider sound as a whole. I typically mic in a H pattern, but that's my own taste. If you want a tight sound try close in xy pattern like everyone is saying. If you still can't get what your looking for try some VERY CAREFULLY SET GATE'S altough I seriously doubt that'll do it for you, especially if your drummer does a lot of dymanic cymbal work.

Opinions are like assholes, everybodies got one and they all stink

[ez_willis]

Can I ask a serious question, here?

What are other people hoping to capture with their overheads on a kit?

The "whole kit", no?

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

Can I ask a serious question, here?

What are other people hoping to capture with their overheads on a kit?

The "whole kit", no?

Two other examples (and how I got off in the other direction...
Live S/R situation might want mostly close mic, the top tailored mostly for cymbal spots (I'm presuming this. I'm not in S/R...

My own home setup up is QTC's for the kit (from the rear slightly and low), snare and two 'kicks' (close and front -also doubles as mono-alt-kit), but has evolved to include a pair of cymbal mics to supplement. This is a fairly cool option to spread (or not ) and control the top end.
They're up above but they're cymbal mics. I wouldn't call them overheads'.
The 'overheads-- well, aren't.

[Wattmind?]

...i thought i would suggest two of the most essential tools to mixing: compression and eq

Try rolling off everything under 400 to 500 Hz on the overheads and compress them with a very fast attack and release. This will catch the snare and kick hits and turn down the main components of the set, in turn making the cymbals louder. You might also add some 10k to the overheads to brighten up the cymbals some.

[jndietz]

Place the OH higher up, turn the gain/volume down. But like everyone else has said... just experiment. Lose some mics, put them in different places.

[FALKEN]

i just re-read the post.

maybe you can pan everything but the overheads dead center. this will still give you a stereo sound but it will give you more of the balance you are looking for. you also might want to buss that mono drum channel to a compressor, and I agree with the above comment about shelving out the OH's. that might do the trick, also. you also might find that you don't need all of the tracks, either.

[chadsxe]

Originally Posted by punkin

Turn off all the other mics...just use the OH's. You should get most of the kit sound with the OH's and, it should sound good when done properly. What is your set up for the OH's...X/Y or other?

Only after you get a good sounding over-head only set up, would I suggest adding the extra snare(s), then the kick and then the tom mics.

No always true. Think Metal.

[Hollowdan]

OK Now that you have heard how everyone else "thinks" you should do it. And how THEY do it so it must be right. I will actually attempt to answer your question:

The delaying, chorusing effect is because every mic has a different distance from the source of the sound. What software are you recording into? If you are using a decent software (ala, pro tools, sonor, cubase, etc) you can literally drag the tracks into alignment. Zoom in really far so you can see the definate peaks of the snare/kick. Then simply drag the overheads to where the initial snare mic, and kick mic peaks are. Also VERY important check ALL phasing on ALL mics. when running alot of mics as you are they tend to somehow invert phase from each other. Reverse the phase on each track and see if it gets better or worse sounding. I bye rule of thumb always reverse the phase on the kick from the rest of the kit just to help it cancel itself from the other mics so it has more impact and doesn't get muddy. Ignore the (2 overheads and a kick mic is all you need) comments, I get some amazing sounding drum tracks "envied bye most of the studio guys in town if I may be so bold as to boast" and I use 10-15 mics on a 6 piece kit. If you think Zepplins drum sound came from a kick mic and 2 overheads? think again. Hope this helps let me know, Dan

[SouthSIDE Glen]

A drum kit is a single instrument with a wide nearfield. Any more than 4 mics on one kit is only necessary under two conditions: 1) if the drummer needs assistance in post production to sound good because he's otherwise only a mediocre drummer who can't hit toms and snars and cymbals (oh my) simultaneously with the touch needed by a good drummer, or 2) if the producer/engineer wants to do heavy special effects or unnatural panning discretely on individual elements of the drum kit.

The acid test: If one can stand a few feet in front of the drum kit - or in front of the stage - and think the drums sound good with their two ears, then there is really no need for more than two electronic "ears" to make them sound good on a recording either.

G.

[jmorris]

[QUOTE=Hollowdan]OK Now that you have heard how everyone else "thinks" you should do it. And how THEY do it so it must be right. I will actually attempt to answer your question:

Hum? little arrogant?

[Hollowdan]

Hey jmorris, did not mean to insult anyone at all, I apologize if it came out that way. It just seemed that "most" I will not say "all" because I do not want to "Accuse" or "degrade" anyone. but "most" replies told him to forget everything about how HE wants to do it and told him to do it "their" way. He made a post asking for suggestions to how to make what HE wants to do work for him. He did not ask how to record drums. He simply asked, how to make his mix of the drums he recorded the way he wanted too, come out better. I think arrogant would be if I had told him he recorded it WRONG because he used too many mic's. I gave a reply to try and help him with doing it HIS way. I did not give an "arrogant" - "MY way is the way you SHOULD do it" speech. I use many mic's on a drum set and get great sounding recordings in my opinion. Alex van halen's drum sound is more than 4 mic's, led zepplins drum sound is more than 4 mic's, I am not sure I have ever heard a platinum album recorded with only 4 mic's on the drums. All the great drum sounds of our time were recorded using many mic's. The few producers I have heard of using 3 or 4 mics on a drum set, I must add were using 3 or 4 NEUMANN U67 and U47's. Yeah give me 4 U67's and I will record drums with 4 mics and make it sound good too lol. So I apologize if I came off as rude, arrogant, or whatever else. I am new here (last night was my first night on here actually) I meant no insult's to anyone at all. I would like to meet some friends and exchange useful information and cool tricks with. The best thing about this recording thing is that there are no RULES and there is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do it. It is all just trying things and seeing how they work. So let's not argue let's have fun with this recording thing and try our best to help each other out. Everyone can teach you something! I hope even though my reply may have been taken out of context that it helped a little bit at least.