*Final mixdown question*

[lawless]

I am finished with the track and am happy with the current mix, the touble is
the mastering engineer requested between 3 and 6 db headroom and my mix peaks at -.25 db. (I am mixing all digital inside cubase sx 3) My question is this: Is it better to pull the master fader down to provide headroom, or is it better to select all the audio clips and pull down their volume to provide headroom. ( or does it really make a difference)
I should note that most of the audio clips have already been adjusted during the mix session so they are not at nominal.


please help,
-lawless

[pingu]

Hi lawless.

I think its wrong for an ME to demand a specified amount of headroom.

Its your mix and your job to get it sounding the way you want.

Having said that if he has listened to it and feels it might benefit the song and mastering procedure to do so then so be it.

Your only concern is providing him with the best possible mix you can and not altering it cause he wants a predetermined amount of headroom.

Having said that, if you still need to bring the levels down, i see no prob with reducing the master fader.

[xfinsterx]

Pull the tracks down, leave the master at zero.
You need to give that headroom to the ME so he can use some fairy dust.

[pingu]

Head room and fairy dust have nothing to do with each other.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If the ME wants it at -6, he can drop it to -6 himself with one stroke of the fader. What's the problem?

G.

[pingu]

yes, exactly.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by pingu

Head room and fairy dust have nothing to do with each other.

They have everything to do with each other. Someone is going to have to turn it down to get the headroom for the processing during mastering. It is best done during the mixdown when everything is figured at 32 bit float, instead of later at 24 bit.

All processing needs headroom, even subtractive EQ eats up headroom. Not to mention the fact that there is no compelling reason to mix that hot in the first place.

[Massive Master]

If your mix is peaking *naturally* that's one thing. If it's peaking because there's a limiter on the 2-buss, it might behoove you to turn it down.

[pingu]

I repeat for Farveiw.

Headroom and fairy dust have nothing to do with each other.

So you believe by giving the mastering engineer headroom it makes the song shine.


Thats bullshit.

And subtractive eq performed properly to an unbalanced mix, will actually give you headroom so dont give me that shit.

[tarnationsauce2]

I think the ME's main concern is that you don't give him clipped or otherwise limited audio to work with.
You got to keep in mind he probably works with all sorts of clients, so he has probably made himself that rule to avoid having to request a corrected mix.

But it should not matter if it's -12dB, or -0.1dB as long as no limiting or clipping has occurred (which none will usually happen at those levels, they are both perfectly OK).

To answer your question, I would turn down the master fader for simplicity sake. There would be no degradation of the audio as compared to turning down all the tracks individually.
Actually turning down tracks individually could be a problem depending on if your effects sends are pre or post fader. If they are post fader, you'll be changing the way your effects (especially dynamics like compression) behave. Thic could apply to the master fader too if you have effects routed through the master.

[pingu]

Good answer Sauce 2

[Massive Master]

Speaking of headroom - and desperately trying to not sound like a broken record - But it's worth pounding and pounding and pounding this into some people's heads...

Digital headroom after everything is recorded. True. Not nearly as important. Reconstructive distortion aside (which is one reason I never even get *close* to -0dBFS during mixing).

But tracking - Recording those signals - Tracking too hot (trying to get the signal "close to -0 without clipping") is a *huge* issue from what I can tell - at least on the forums... That's not how gear is designed to run. 0dBVU (being around -18dBFS depending on the gear) is where almost everything is designed to run at optimally. The best signal, the lowest signal-to-noise, the lowest distortion - And the "intangibles" - The best "focus" and "air" - the clearest dynamics, the most punch...

Driving your input signal too hard screws *so many things up* that I don't understand why so many people don't get that simple "first day of class" obviosity. Adding distortion, noise, losing punch, air, clarity - Drastically changing the signal depending on the chain. And then, the "innocent" wonderment question:

"Why don't my mixes sound Pro?"

Well, because you've beat the hell out of every single track, used up all the headroom at every single phase, on every track, every buss - After basically overdriving the signal to get it into the DAW...

In the quest (it's a good quest) to make recordings sound "big" - There's no better way to screw that up than to record with hot levels. It's almost guaranteed to make it sound "small" in the end.

In short, once it's digital, it's digital. Digital gain is basically linear. But the analog parts - The preamps and compressors and EQ's and *converters* on the way into "the box" is another story...

[pingu]

Good points to remember John.


Cheers

[Farview]

Originally Posted by pingu

I repeat for Farveiw.

Headroom and fairy dust have nothing to do with each other. And subtractive eq performed properly to an unbalanced mix, will actually give you headroom so dont give me that shit.

When you use subtractive EQ, you will end up with little 'bumps' at the extreme ends of the bell. Anyway, what if the ME needs to use some additive EQ? If he doesn't have the headroom, he has to turn it down.

Originally Posted by pingu

So you believe by giving the mastering engineer headroom it makes the song shine.

Who the fuck said that? If the mix sucks, it sucks no matter how much headroom you have. But, like I did say, turning it down at the mix stage is preferable to turning it down in mastering.

[lawless]

Burning the midnight oil? ...Thank you everyone for the advice. I appreciate it.

[pingu]

Farview



Just explain to me what fairy dust has to do with headroom and ill be happy.

[lawless]

If the mix sucks, it sucks no matter how much headroom you have.

very true

[pingu]

Farview.


Lets just touch each others headroom and everything will be just fine.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by pingu

Farview
Just explain to me what fairy dust has to do with headroom and ill be happy.

You may have a different definition of 'fairy dust'. When the ME does his thing (sprinkles his fairy dust, you know, EQ, de-essing, compression, etc...), he will need more than .025db of headroom to do it.
Are you happy yet?

[pingu]

what about touching my headroom?

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by Farview

You may have a different definition of 'fairy dust'. When the ME does his thing (sprinkles his fairy dust, you know, EQ, de-essing, compression, etc...), he will need more than .025db of headroom to do it.
Are you happy yet?

Absolutely right. And why the hell would you want to blast your mix to -0.25dB when you're having it sent for mastering anyway? Just get the balance and sounds right and leave the volume for someone who has a clue what they're doing (which discounts most of the people on this forum, myself included).

[Farview]

Originally Posted by pingu

what about touching my headroom?

I think you are 'touched' enough as it is.

[SonicAlbert]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

But tracking - Recording those signals - Tracking too hot (trying to get the signal "close to -0 without clipping") is a *huge* issue from what I can tell - at least on the forums... That's not how gear is designed to run. 0dBVU (being around -18dBFS depending on the gear) is where almost everything is designed to run at optimally. The best signal, the lowest signal-to-noise, the lowest distortion - And the "intangibles" - The best "focus" and "air" - the clearest dynamics, the most punch...

Driving your input signal too hard screws *so many things up* that I don't understand why so many people don't get that simple "first day of class" obviosity. Adding distortion, noise, losing punch, air, clarity - Drastically changing the signal depending on the chain. And then, the "innocent" wonderment question:

"Why don't my mixes sound Pro?"

Well, because you've beat the hell out of every single track, used up all the headroom at every single phase, on every track, every buss - After basically overdriving the signal to get it into the DAW...

This is a great post (not only the part I just quoted), it should be in a FAQ somewhere or something.

This obsession with hitting digital zero at all stages of the game is just horrifying, and it clearly sounds awful. I don't understand why people can't seem to hear it, or is it that they aren't listening? My piano teacher at the conservatory always used to make a point about the difference between "hearing" and "listening". And there is a huge difference between the two.

[pingu]

Originally Posted by Farview

You may have a different definition of 'fairy dust'. When the ME does his thing (sprinkles his fairy dust, you know, EQ, de-essing, compression, etc...), he will need more than .025db of headroom to do it.
Are you happy yet?

Perfect case of high rep power and posts not counting for shit.

[Farview]

Which part of what I said is in dispute?