Mastering myself

[MadAudio]

No, this is not some thread about est or Lifespring or any of that bullshit.

I just finished recording and mixing a band. We are all quite pleased with how it has turned out so far, but now the band wants me to master it. I made sure to tell them more than once during the sessions about the importance of having a mastering engineer master the material, and why that was so. I think the underlying issue is really money. As many people do, they expected to spend less time in the studio than they actually did, and therefor spent more money than they anticipated. At "friend rates" no less.

The real issue for me is the frickin' loudness wars. The first comment I got from the very first rough mix CD was "Why is it so quiet compared to ....." Arrrgghhh!

So I've got all my premaster mixes done. They are 24-bit, 44.1kHz. They average at -12dB but will peak at -6dB. My boss suggested "pretend you have different ears." Uh, funny, Pete, but not helpful.

Other suggestions?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

No, this is not some thread about est or Lifespring or any of that bullshit.

Actually, I was thinking something totally different...but this is a family show.

[whyseye]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Actually, I was thinking something totally different...but this is a family show.

I thought it was just me!!

[mx_mx]

I mastered myself this morning

[MadAudio]

I will be sending True to spank all three of you directly. But one at a time, you pervs.

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

No, this is not some thread about est or Lifespring or any of that bullshit.

I just finished recording and mixing a band. We are all quite pleased with how it has turned out so far, but now the band wants me to master it. I made sure to tell them more than once during the sessions about the importance of having a mastering engineer master the material, and why that was so. I think the underlying issue is really money. As many people do, they expected to spend less time in the studio than they actually did, and therefor spent more money than they anticipated. At "friend rates" no less.

The real issue for me is the frickin' loudness wars. The first comment I got from the very first rough mix CD was "Why is it so quiet compared to ....." Arrrgghhh!

So I've got all my premaster mixes done. They are 24-bit, 44.1kHz. They average at -12dB but will peak at -6dB. My boss suggested "pretend you have different ears." Uh, funny, Pete, but not helpful.

Other suggestions?

I don't know enough about mastering to know if I'm doing something wrong, but in Wavelab, I get my songs to average about -12 also. But they peak at -.2. If you've got them averaging about -12 and peaking at -6 BEFORE mastering, doesn't that mean that when you get the peak up to -.2 (or whatever), they'll average about -6!?!? What am I missing?

[treymonfauntre]

slap a limiter on it, make em happy

[bigwillz24]

Well I think it depends on the material and what you are willing to sacrifice for relative loudness. The last song I pseudo-mastered had an RMS level of -12db but the peak was right at 0db. Of course slapping a limiter on you music will work to acheive the perceived loudness of the other cds but it always boils down to how much of the dynamic range you are willing to sacrifice. I mean you can use a limiter without completely squashing a mix.

[ryanlikestorock]

There's no rule that says you have to push the volume up so that the peaks are at -.02 or whatever. If you're at -12db RMS average, that might be good enough for your tracks. Don't worry about the peaks. Play the disc next to a similar sounding album and see how it compares. If it's a bit quieter, you're probably in good shape.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by RAMI

If you've got them averaging about -12 and peaking at -6 BEFORE mastering, doesn't that mean that when you get the peak up to -.2 (or whatever), they'll average about -6!?!? What am I missing?

That's my question too. -6dBFS peak with a -12dBRMS should by simple 0dBFS normalization bring your RMS up to -6, which is about as loud as it gets without squarewaving the whole thing.

G.

[MadAudio]

RAMI and SSG - my concern is perhaps the overall mix may need some gentle eq, and it's difficult for me to judge that listening on the same gear. Plus I'm so familiar with the material and how I've mixed it that it's difficult to be objective. I asked a friend of mine if he'd sit in and be a second pair of ears, but he's afraid of being too critical!

[Massive Master]

"Why is it so quiet compared to ....."

...to recording with a half-million dollar budget just in labor using a team of insustry professionals working in specifically designed rooms with the best possible gear available for months on end?

A good mastering engineer might be able to "squeeze" mixes beyond the point where they may want to be while grasping at some sort of quality along the way, but many (most) mixes just don't have the volume potential as some mixes utilizing the above specs.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

RAMI and SSG - my concern is perhaps the overall mix may need some gentle eq, and it's difficult for me to judge that listening on the same gear.

If your monitors are not to be trusted for overall EQ balances, then you are going to have a hard time of it. The best advice I can give you is to burn off reference copies every once in a while and go listen on other speaker systems, comparing to a big name CD with a sound similar to the band you are working with.
You can also most likely squeeze out some headroom by getting a better handle on the low end. shelve or scoop out some of that sub stuff that takes a lot of energy. And adding certain upper & mid frequencies gently can make the mix sound louder.
And of course compressing the dynamic range with a compressor and pushing down the quick little transients with a digital limiter.
Or if you're really desperate: multiband compression...

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by Reggie

If your monitors are not to be trusted for overall EQ balances, then you are going to have a hard time of it. The best advice I can give you is to burn off reference copies every once in a while and go listen on other speaker systems, comparing to a big name CD with a sound similar to the band you are working with.
You can also most likely squeeze out some headroom by getting a better handle on the low end. shelve or scoop out some of that sub stuff that takes a lot of energy. And adding certain upper & mid frequencies gently can make the mix sound louder.
And of course compressing the dynamic range with a compressor and pushing down the quick little transients with a digital limiter.
Or if you're really desperate: multiband compression...

Thanks for the post, reggie. It's not my monitors, it's me. I tend to mix a little low-end heavy, though I try to remain aware of that! I was working on it today though, and I think it's gonna work out. For the premaster mixes I had already gone through the songs and manually dealt with transients (mostly snare drum, though the ride did need a little taming here and there). I did some minor eq'ing and added a light touch of compression to the mixes, then normalized them to -0.2dB. It's definitley good (and loud) enough to send to the band for comments, that's for sure.

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

...to recording with a half-million dollar budget just in labor using a team of insustry professionals working in specifically designed rooms with the best possible gear available for months on end?

A good mastering engineer might be able to "squeeze" mixes beyond the point where they may want to be while grasping at some sort of quality along the way, but many (most) mixes just don't have the volume potential as some mixes utilizing the above specs.

YGWYPF, that's for sure! But despite my apparent unease, I'm really quite proud of how this project sounds.

[bigwillz24]

So can we hear it or what?

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by bigwillz24

So can we hear it or what?

Once the bad approves of the finals, I'll be posting one or two. They're very fussy about what gets "out there."

[bigwillz24]

Screw the "bad" I want to hear the good.

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by bigwillz24

Screw the "bad" I want to hear the good.

Patience is a virtue!

[pingu]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

No, this is not some thread about est or Lifespring or any of that bullshit.

I just finished recording and mixing a band. We are all quite pleased with how it has turned out so far, but now the band wants me to master it. I made sure to tell them more than once during the sessions about the importance of having a mastering engineer master the material, and why that was so. I think the underlying issue is really money. As many people do, they expected to spend less time in the studio than they actually did, and therefor spent more money than they anticipated. At "friend rates" no less.

The real issue for me is the frickin' loudness wars. The first comment I got from the very first rough mix CD was "Why is it so quiet compared to ....." Arrrgghhh!

So I've got all my premaster mixes done. They are 24-bit, 44.1kHz. They average at -12dB but will peak at -6dB. My boss suggested "pretend you have different ears." Uh, funny, Pete, but not helpful.

Other suggestions?

Allow yourself some time away from the songs if you can.

As much as possible.

[Dogman]

If you turn it up LOUD, does it sound good? Not with a compressor, or limiter, just turn the volume up. Does it sound good? If not, try and fix that first.

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by pingu

Allow yourself some time away from the songs if you can.

As much as possible.

Like time is ever on my side!

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by Dogman

If you turn it up LOUD, does it sound good? Not with a compressor, or limiter, just turn the volume up. Does it sound good? If not, try and fix that first.

I listened at many levels, through 3 different pairs of monitors and headphones, and overall the low end (centering around 80Hz) did need a little reduction, 'cause loud it was almost on the vergy of farty. I've been itching to post this stuff since the very first rough mix, but the band are friends, and I must respect their wishes. If they were all assholes and owed me lots of money, that would be different!

[pingu]

Originally Posted by MadAudio

Like time is ever on my side!

Have you thought about sending it away for mastering?

[MadAudio]

Originally Posted by pingu

Have you thought about sending it away for mastering?

Sure, but I'm not paying for it! If it was my own band I wouldn't have even started this thread!