ANybody here think High End Pre's are Overrated?

[MadMax]

I'm tempted to buy one, but I've never used one. And so far, my A&H Mixwiz sounds fine. But am I missing something? I have a feeling, based on the endless threads out there that a pre that costs about twice what a mic costs will make about 5% difference in the sound. And then you have to decide if that 5% is good, bad, or just different.
So waht I want to know is if there's anybody who knows what they're talking about who bought a $2000 mic pre and was disappointed.

I suspect it's kinda like the old Emperor's new clothes thing.

[RezN8]

I think it really depends on what your needs will be. Allen & Heath makes a great board. If you are satisfied with the final output, then stick with that.

However, I was amazed what a high-end mic pre can do. A simple comparison using a standard SM58 and there was a world of difference IMHO.

Especially when you start adding up tracks -- that is where the high-end pres really start to shine. I get a lot more focus and detail from the higher-quality pres.

[Chris.]

If you plug in a mic expecting to be wowwed by the sound of the pre then you won't be excited. The real magic of a higher end pre comes during mixdown when all of your tracks come out better and are easier to mix.

[MadMax]

Would just one $$$ pre help me at the mixing stage, or would I need different flavors to get the benefit of easier mixing? I don't really understand this.

[RezN8]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Would just one $$$ pre help me at the mixing stage, or would I need different flavors to get the benefit of easier mixing? I don't really understand this.

If you're just getting started, I'd start with one good clean pre - you don't need a bunch of different ones to color your sound unless you're going to open your own pro studio. Just my opinion.

A great place to start is with the True Systems P-SOLO. It won't break your bank, and it is truly a great sounding device. If you have the money and the need for 8, than get their Precision 8. Awesome bang for the buck and you WILL NOT be disappointed. (Especially the detail in the lows-- a bass DI into it sounds amazing!)

I think DOT (Dan Richards) gave a great explanation on how lower-end pres tend to take up more sound space and cloud your mixes. Do a search and see if you can dig up that article.

[RezN8]

here I found it for you. Read this:

http://www.creativemac.com/articles/...e.jsp?id=14367

[MadMax]

Thanks for the link. So after reading it, it looks like the difference is Intermodulation and harmonic distortion. And although they may be inaudible to my ear, they take up space and cloud the soundfield. Makes sense. So a clean, well designed preamp is the objective here. After all, we're just boosting the signal of the mic, right? And we want to do it as invisibly as possible, right?
So a preamp that can amplify let's say 5hz to 50khz with no measurable distortion would be ideal, right?
It doesn't seem like that would be that hard to design or build. I know that every time a tone control or filter is put in the ckt. it by default becomes a source for distortion. I guess that's why most hi end pre's have one knob and maybe a phantom switch and a phase switch at the most.

Yeah, I'm skeptical. But I'm willing to learn, and I'll spend the money if it's going to make my recordings better.

[B52]

Wasn't there a guy selling a Peavey VMP-2 in the classifieds here for $600? That'd be a great start for a 2 channel unit.

Just keep your eyes open and you can definitely add some nice pres for under $500 a channel.

[B52]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Would just one $$$ pre help me at the mixing stage, or would I need different flavors to get the benefit of easier mixing? I don't really understand this.

Yeah, even just one COULD help.

For example, if you track drums with your mixer, track bass and vocals with your "good" pre, they should be easier to seperate in the mix.

Of course, this is all hypothetical.

A LOT of great records were made in the past with only the preamps on the mixing board...but of course those were really good pres (Neve, Api, Simens/telefunken, neumann, spectrasonics, MCI, Trident, etc..)...i'm talking about almost every record done before the 80's, when people started racking up and selling outboard pres.

If you're happy with the sounds you are getting now, there is no reason to upgrade. But if you want to find that extra 10% in quality, pick up something and see if it helps you. If not, sell it.

Let your ears decide.

[B52]

And I don't necessarily agree the preamp has to be "clean". A lot of great records were done on pres I wouldn't consider "clean".

By the way, what kind of music do you work on?

[B52]

Oh yeah..i forgot...the 7th circle audio stuff will allow you to get some really high quality preamps for a great price if you're handy with a soldering iron or know someone that is.

http://www.seventhcirclestudios.com/SCA/SCA.htm

[MadMax]

Well, there's a HUGE $$$ range in pre's. So where am I going to notice a difference? $500? $1000? $2000? Is a $2000 preamp 4 times better than a $500 preamp?
And I do mostly rock (not numetal) music, but I also have some nucountry-female vocal stuff going on too.

[B52]

While i'm at it, other good options:

- ADK Ap-1 - API cloan that alllows you to switch opamps and transformers. Good bang for the buck and sounds great even stock.

- Get an API or Old School Audio rack and then there are a lot of great options you can pick up for around $600...api, brent averill, old school audio, purple, a-designs...a lot more on the way or out now. A great option and allows you to expand in the future.

- Sytek 4 channel pre - these go for around $800 for 4 channels. You can get 2 with burr brown chips so they sound a little different. These are good all-rounders but I feel you should go for something better here if you're looking for top quality.

- Dan Alexander Audio Dual Class A - Neve 1272 clones. I used to have a pair and they're pretty nice for the used price of about $1000. I think the Seventh Circle Neve clones sound better to me...but this is still an option.

- Vintech Dual 72 - Another Neve 1272 clone - Kind of Dark sounding...lots of people like it though.

- Great River MP1nv - Great pre. It's about $1200 but you'd be very happy with it.

- Used Universal Audio LA-610 - This is my favorite version of the 610 preamp and it happens to come with a cool La-2a style limiter after it. I just sold mine for $1100 to buy something else, but it's a really cool colored pre. Just be ready to use that pad a lot because it likes to distort! But very thick and smooth sound.

- Peavey VMP-2 - I meantioned it in another post. Very underrated tube pre.

- Racked up "obscure" pres on ebay. you'll have to do your research on them. But spectrasonics, rca, etc have some decent pres that many people don't know about so don't exactly command "vintage values".

- SafeSound Audio P1 - Kind of clean pre but very smooth. Comes with a compressor too. I can't say anything bad about this one.


With all these options out there, you can definitely find quality without spending $2000.

Good luck.

[B52]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Well, there's a HUGE $$$ range in pre's. So where am I going to notice a difference? $500? $1000? $2000? Is a $2000 preamp 4 times better than a $500 preamp?
And I do mostly rock (not numetal) music, but I also have some nucountry-female vocal stuff going on too.

Good question... a $2000 preamp is never guaranteed to be better than a $800 one. They are just different tools.

OH, i thought of ANOTHER option. The Groove Tubes suPRE is coming out really soon. I think it's $1200 for 2 channels. I've never used it, but I want to listen to it soon.

[B52]

Another option...

The new Chandler Germanium. I think it's $1150 with the power supply. It's getting great reviews from users. Can go from kind of clean to very colored. Great range of sounds in one pre.

[B52]

And to answer your original question, I've bought a $2000 pre before and have been dissapointed. That doesn't mean the person I sold it to was dissapointed though.

They are just tools...my dad likes one brand of circular saw while Bob Villa uses a different one.

Also...most mic pres that cost that much money usually have special features that justify that price. For example, the Groove Tubes Vipre has a lot of variable impedance options that can really change the tone of that pre....or they come with an eq, compressor, etc. I can't think of many $2000 pres that are just a no frills preamp.

[XLR]

So waht I want to know is if there's anybody who knows what they're talking about who bought a $2000 mic pre and was disappointed.

I wasn't disappointed. Definitely not an emperor-with-no-clothes thing. But high end pre's can't fix common problems like a bad room sound or poor mic technique.

Tim

[fraserhutch]

And furthermore, A&H boards, INVHOP have quite nice pres. I would only get an outboard if I were specifically looking to add other colours to my pallette.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I'm tempted to buy one, but I've never used one. And so far, my A&H Mixwiz sounds fine. But am I missing something? I have a feeling, based on the endless threads out there that a pre that costs about twice what a mic costs will make about 5% difference in the sound. And then you have to decide if that 5% is good, bad, or just different.
So waht I want to know is if there's anybody who knows what they're talking about who bought a $2000 mic pre and was disappointed.

I suspect it's kinda like the old Emperor's new clothes thing.

Pres are and mics are all overrated if you are using them in untreaded rooms. Spend the money making a fantastic acoustic room for recording an then your sm57 and shit pre will sound better than a $2000 pre in your shit room. But then if you get the $2000 pre and use it in your newly made acoustic room you will have a much better sound.

Don't waste the money if you have other areas to improve first.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Well, there's a HUGE $$$ range in pre's. So where am I going to notice a difference? $500? $1000? $2000? Is a $2000 preamp 4 times better than a $500 preamp?
And I do mostly rock (not numetal) music, but I also have some nucountry-female vocal stuff going on too.

They say 90% of your money goes into the last 10% of your sound. So figure that into the $500 VS $2000 pre.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Outlaws

They say 90% of your money goes into the last 10% of your sound.

True, true, true......

[BigRay]

and another option..

www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm (do a search here and gearslutz)

Im sounding like a broken record, but I own Millennia pres(HV-3C) and the DAV is every bit as good,..., and IMHO.. actually better than the millennia. for 700 bucks..2 channels.


also, the true systems pres are nice...more colored than the DAV.

Crookwood preamps..very nice
Davissound! awesome.


I dont care for the neve-ish stuff, and think that the neve clone fad will die down in a bit. every week a new neve clone is out, with a new batch of chinese mics.


Like some dude said...you can make a record with just ONE kind of pre...just get a really good one .

[rsolinski]

Nope.

Ray

[BigRay]

Some people I see saying things like that simply cant afford them. The ones that own high end preamps probably dont think that way, and you dont see many people getting rid of their GMLs to use Behringers. If the engineer sucks, good gear aint gonna save him...but if the gear is great and the engineer is great..watch out!

[Big Kenny]

Originally Posted by rsolinski

Nope.

Ray

What he said.