Can we please discuss the use of reverb on drums.

[chadsxe]

Reverb and drums is something I still do not have a grasp on. There are so many possibilities it hurts to think about them. So I would love to start a conversation on diffrent reverb/drum techniques. Lets try and break things down a little bit.

Snare:

So from my ears I am under the impression that most snares get a treatment of reverb on them. I have been using some plates as of recent. The say seem to give the snare its placing but not muddy it up. What have you guys been using?

Kick:

I have never used verb on a kick but like with anything else you can never say never.

Toms:

I have no clue. I am guessing there is a give and take and a lot has to do with the feel of the song. It seems like in most modern mixes there is very little used but it is there none the less.

OH's:

Once again I have no clue. I am listening to Trivium (Metal for those who don't know) and it appears that there is a slight room on the oh's but I just can't tell. It easily could be the actual room.



Anyways I just thought this might spark a good conversation. Please be sure to refer to styles of music as I think that dictates a lot.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Chad, you're probably going to hate my reply...and that is your right. This is, after all in this case just a point of view. And I certainly don't mean this post to mean or be taken as anything personal. Just a general observation...

It always strikes me that threads like this miss the point altogether by putting the cart before the horse. They are asking for an answer before the question is even asked.

Being an audio engineer means imagining a "sound" and then developing a plan for applying available tools and technique to create that sound. To put it another way, step number one is always to know where you want to end up before you start moving.

Respectufully, questions like "how to use reverb on drums" are - to my understanding - asking for a path to a destination without first defining or even imaging what the desired destination is. Sometimes the answer is "no reverb at all". Other times the answer is "throw some warm ambience on the stereo drum submix". Still other times the answer might be "make the snare sound like it is being played in an empty church, but leave the cymbals relatively dry." And so on.

It not only completly depends on what you imagine in your mind as to what kind of sound you are looking for, that prior imagining is a fundamental necessity for good sound engineering.

Of course, only the most experienced engineers on this board will agree with this, and even then some will add a "but" to it . The rest of us will pooh pooh this opinion as elitist and want to yammer on about the awsome results they get by always doing something a certain way. Don't let me stop you. I got my ya yas out, I'm done; continue on...

G.

[chadsxe]

It does not bother me at all....

You see there are two ways you can look at it and anything else in life. I learned early on that I should always envision where I want to go before I head out on that trip. But on the trip I like to have as many tools as possible. These tools come in the form of knowledge. So were does the knowledge come from? Well, One of two places.

1. Real-world experience. Get out there and try things and make educated choices based of what you have learned.

2. Other people’s real-world applications. A lot of stuff has been done and a lot of ground has been covered.

I myself love to start with two and finish with one. I basically love to sit hear at my desk while at work and think. Talking and conversing and throwing around ideas is the only thing that keeps me going.

So with that said I basically would love to hear other people’s ideas and results. That way I can make educated guesses when applying number 1. Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.

p.s. I would still love to hear some of you ideas regarding the topic.

Thanks

Chad

[chessrock]

First off, the very best kind of drum reverb is almost always going to come from the room mics.

From there, the creative use of compression can enhance the natural reverb of the room ... can alter the sense of space or the decay time. Similarly, the use of EQ on the room mics can "bring out" certain aspects of the kit's sound that you find desirable, or de-emphasize things you find less desirable.

It's all very much like tweaking the reverb's parameters (pre-delay, EQ, diffusion, size, etc.) if those parameters are available to you. If they are not, and you don't have the benefit of working with room mics, then I think it would be to one's benefit / advantage to make a copy of said drum track, and apply the desired reverb to it 100% "wet." Then manipulate the wet track with EQ and/or compression .... move it up or back a little bit to mess with the pre-delay and that sort of thing. Basically treat the wet track the same way one might treat the room mic tracks (were you to be blessed with such a luxury).

That's one guy's way of approaching it, and there are many others.

.

[noisewreck]

Chessrock, that idea is cool as heck! Would love to give you a chicklet, but apparently I need to spread some love around before I can come back atchya

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by chadsxe

.. I myself love to start with two and finish with one. I basically love to sit hear at my desk while at work and think. Talking and conversing and throwing around ideas is the only thing that keeps me going.

So with that said I basically would love to hear other people’s ideas and results. That way I can make educated guesses when applying number 1. Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.

Not a bad notion but where to start? Genre/style? So many huge variables. Lets try, but you drive ok?

Of course, only the most experienced engineers on this board will agree with this, and even then some will add a "but" to it . The rest of us will pooh pooh this opinion as elitist and want to yammer on about the awsome results they get by always doing something a certain way. Don't let me stop you. I got my ya yas out, I'm done; continue on...

G.

Shit, I was going to go 'Right on description of the problem' until I read the rest. Now I'll just look like a suck up.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mixsit

Not a bad notion but where to start? Genre/style? So many huge variables. Lets try, but you drive ok?

That's my problem, I don't know what to suggest. I have done or or at least heard done practically everything that could possibly be done with verb on drums. It is so context-specific that I have no idea what to recommend as general ideas. It's not even easy when breaking down by genres; I have heard everything from dry as drought to wet as underwater within single genres - sometimes even on one album. It really is all about figuring out what kind of sound you want for the composition first, and then applying the kind of verb technique necessary to achieve that particular sound. Now if one is not sure what technique will get one there, and they just can't figure it out, then asking the question "how do I get this to sound like that" becomes relevant.

Originally Posted by mixsit

Shit, I was going to go 'Right on description of the problem' until I read the rest. Now I'll just look like a suck up.

No need to look or sound like a suck-up mixsit. I accept cash and checks privately too .

G.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

... I accept cash and checks privately too .
G.

This is going to be expensive isn't it..

[ryanlikestorock]

Anytime you're clicking without listening, you're making a mistake. Take a few hours and apply every type of reverb to every mic on the kit - one by one. Long chambers, short rooms, plates, weird verbs, etc... They all have a purpose at one time or another.

Look up the "convolution" verb programs and threads on here. If you're using a digital reverb (even from Waves or other high end companies), you'll probably have a hard time with reverbs. I know I did.

[clevodrummer]

I have a gretsch kit and I am a real drummer. What I have been doing as far as reverb for recording is putting a Shure SM57 under the snares on the snare drum and running it to a digitech reverb foot stomper, than into the mixer I play with it usually gated for recording.

I have read that its a no no to use stomp boxes, but it works fine for me especially with th sm57. Than I have two Marshalls for overheads. I dont add reverb to the bass drum for recording, but I do for having some fun. It seems best to keep the bass drum dry so it can be mixed nicely with the bass guitar.

I use an audix cheapo f 12 bass drum mike for the kick. When Im just having fun I add reverb to the whole kit and its a real rush.

Im almost 50 years old, so I am also from the I love reverb school. That and tremelo.

But give that idea a try with the snare mike under the snare and run through a stomp reverb box wet. Decent overheads will get the attack at the top of the drum, at least thats my opinion.

Clevodrummer

[brendandwyer]

I think that the bottom line is that there is no right and wrong way to choose reverb sounds and where to put it. For those of us recording their own music and being their own producers, we have the unique freedom to experiment with every permutation of a mix. Sometimes it might feel like we're miles away from what would be considered a professional result, but as long as the result gets a little better each time, we've accomplished alot.

I've recorded drums a lot of different ways, with a lot of different mic setups, and a lot of mix settings / effects. And i almost never bother to try to remember "what worked well" because each time we track a song, it needs something different, used in a different way. So in that sense, i could not possibly provide a boilerplate of an answer. These are matters of taste. It's not like a mic setup to avoid phase cancellation, that is technical and there is a "correct" way to do it. This is taste all the way.

[chadsxe]

Great comments everyone keep them coming....

For those who keep mentioning that there "is no one way of doing things". This I understand and have understood since I started this great journey of recording music. I myself have said those exact words countless times to other people. God knows it has been said over and over on this board. But what has to be understood is I am not looking for a one shot solution to all my problems and to be honest I would not even classify my intrests as problems. I more so am looking to spark a converstation.

With this in mind....


Last night I was messing around with some mixes (i.e. As I lay dying, Lamb of God type stuff) and tried this.

I bussed the toms and snare and added a plate to them. I then bussed a dry of the toms, snare, and oh's added a little compression and a drop of small room verb. This gave me a very gelling typical modern metal kit. I even messed around with sending the kick to the room verb buss but in the end I was not digging it. I am still torn about the oh's though. On most kits I record I don't have the gifts of a great room so there is no room mic aviable come mic time. This is why I send the whole kit to the artifical room buss. But I still can't make my mind up if the over heads are lacking a proper position. Ehhh just more food for thought.

[Anomaly Design]

I'm a metalhead and find reverb runs th gammit on my metal library. If your going towards metal, I would say the scale from no reverb to full reverb has the effect of really tight aggressiveness to epic, or slipknot to dimmu borgir. When doing this snare is the first to get any reverb, followed by the toms. I rarely if ever put any on my two OH's or kick, I like them defined. All IMO, hope that helps.

[The don]

if you have a decent pair of monitors the right choise of reverb is the one that sound good in the mix...
i think that these kind of choises gives at the end your personal view and technic which is the desirable outcome...

[TexRoadkill]

Pipeline has a cool tutorial on treating the drums with exciter and reverb. http://members.cox.net/pipelineaudio...he%20Snare.htm

[chadsxe]

Originally Posted by The don

if you have a decent pair of monitors the right choise of reverb is the one that sound good in the mix...
i think that these kind of choises gives at the end your personal view and technic which is the desirable outcome...

Yes I know...see my post above...

[bigtoe]

Originally Posted by clevodrummer

I have a gretsch kit and I am a real drummer. What I have been doing as far as reverb for recording is putting a Shure SM57 under the snares on the snare drum and running it to a digitech reverb foot stomper, than into the mixer I play with it usually gated for recording.

I have read that its a no no to use stomp boxes, but it works fine for me especially with th sm57. Than I have two Marshalls for overheads. I dont add reverb to the bass drum for recording, but I do for having some fun. It seems best to keep the bass drum dry so it can be mixed nicely with the bass guitar.

I use an audix cheapo f 12 bass drum mike for the kick. When Im just having fun I add reverb to the whole kit and its a real rush.

Im almost 50 years old, so I am also from the I love reverb school. That and tremelo.

But give that idea a try with the snare mike under the snare and run through a stomp reverb box wet. Decent overheads will get the attack at the top of the drum, at least thats my opinion.

Clevodrummer

THIS is why i love musicians in Cleveland. long live this type of stuff! awesome!

i use short delay - usually from a predelay on a short verb.

Mike