vocal effects question

[blindman jones]

I would like to bring my vocals out more - No need for a ton of effects I'm just doing more "acoustic" type of material. Recording on 8 track digtal with built in cd burner. I got rid of the dynamic mic and went with a large condenser. Can't wait to try it out. Everyone says I need a mic processor-exspensive mic pre-and effects processor What do you think? Is this the obvious route to go? ( For good clean - up front vocals ) Thank You.


P.S. - Is there any danger of this equipment hurting my recorder?

[Dogman]

You will need a mic pre....and I'm not sure if your recorder has one. What type is it? Most condensor mics need +48v of phantom power. If you have that, you are set in that respect. Does your recorder have any FX? Compression, and reverb might be some FX you want on vox. They can help to get the vox to sit better in a mix, when done properly.

[blindman jones]

It's a Fostex with a built in cd burner -
It has a pre, phantom, and effects, although I haven't figured out how to put more than 1 effect on the vocals. I just choose the " male vocal " effect, whatever that is.
I'm Really hoping the condenser mic does well.
MAN, I just see all this TC Helicon, Antares, and exspensive mic processors, and exspensive preamps - IT Looks like they will blow up my recorder!
My vocals weren't right last time with a dynamic mic. NO power, presense...
(Was pleased with the music.)
I hope I can get the vocals up front. Crisp And Clean!
These guys in the music store say I need it all! If I had it all, I guess it would sound a little better! I just thought I might be lacking a vaulable piece of equipment that I may need to get the vocals where they should be. Thank You.

[littledog]

Don't expect changing the mic to magically solve your problems. To make a vocal sound consistently up-front and present in a mix you are probably going to have to learn to use compression - and not just a preset on your recorder. My guess is if you master some basic compression techniques you can get a good enough result that you won't have to buy a lot of other fancy rack gear, at least for a little while...

[expatguy]

Originally Posted by blindman jones

I
I'm Really hoping the condenser mic does well.

Unless you got a really poor quality mic, you *will* notice your mic picking up so much more of your voice. You'll also notice it picking up your upstairs neighbor walking to the refrigerator, the dog barking down the street, and God knows what else. You'll have to take all of this into account, which may mean at the very least finding a quiet place to record if you don't already have one. Anyway, the mic should help you bring out more of your voice.

, I just see all this TC Helicon, Antares, and exspensive mic processors, and exspensive preamps - IT Looks like they will blow up my recorder!
My vocals weren't right last time with a dynamic mic. NO power, presense...
(Was pleased with the music.)
I hope I can get the vocals up front. Crisp And Clean!
These guys in the music store say I need it all! If I had it all, I guess it would sound a little better! I just thought I might be lacking a vaulable piece of equipment that I may need to get the vocals where they should be. Thank You.

Like the others said, you're going to want a dedicated preamp, regardless of the kind of music you make. I suggest a channel strip, which is a processor that combines, at the minimum, a preamp AND a compressor, which usually also means that it can be set up for automatic de-essing (to keep those "s" sounds from sounding so awful). The compressor lets you raise the level of the signal but protects you from going over the top and distorting. A good inexpensive one is the dbx 286A. I have one and find it to be clean, with good gain. You will have to learn a bit about why compression is useful and how to use a compressor to make the best use of it.

Good luck!

[flamin-gitaur]

A little reverb and/or compressoion can go a long way when trying to get your vox to sit in the mix.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by blindman jones

It has a pre, phantom, and effects, although I haven't figured out how to put more than 1 effect on the vocals. I just choose the " male vocal " effect, whatever that is.

That unit will have everything that you need. You just need to crack open the manual and learn how to use it.

[blindman jones]

YES true. I hope your right. My fostex has insert effects, I haven't completly figured out how to use. ( or somthing where I can go back and add effects )
Anyway I'll be giving it another try. And probly have to learn how to use compression.
These processors and pre's, they make them look so juicy! Like they will do magic. ( pre's will " warm your voice up " and compressor, de esser, and all those other effects!)

I feel like I'm missing out on something till I buy one.

[Farview]

You need to look into effect sends, that is where reverb, delay, etc... belongs. Inserts are for compression, gating eq and stuff like that.

[EDAN]

Originally Posted by Farview

You need to look into effect sends, that is where reverb, delay, etc... belongs. Inserts are for compression, gating eq and stuff like that.

Inserts can be and are used for effects all the time.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by EDAN

Inserts can be and are used for effects all the time.

Yes, but on one of those eall-in-one units (like he is using) there is a severe limit to DSP. I'm not sure which Fostex unit he has, but even the biggest one can only run 2 reverbs at once, and that severely limits (like 2 or less) the number of compressors you can use at the same time. With these things, you have to really be economical in the way you use the effects. One instance of reverb will screw you out of 4 or 5 instances of compression.

If you have three vocal tracks (for instance) and you want reverb on all of them, you have to set up a send. The machine will not run 3 reverbs, it doesn't have the power.

[MISTERQCUE]

Originally Posted by Farview

That unit will have everything that you need. You just need to crack open the manual and learn how to use it.

What he said.

[MISTERQCUE]

Originally Posted by EDAN

Inserts can be and are used for effects all the time.

No. Inserts are to be used solely for dynamic processors.
Aux rets and sends s/b used for efx processors.

[Robert D]

Originally Posted by Farview

That unit will have everything that you need. You just need to crack open the manual and learn how to use it.

Hey, you've discovered the universal answer to everything!

[Robert D]

Originally Posted by MISTERQCUE

No. Inserts are to be used solely for dynamic processors.
Aux rets and sends s/b used for efx processors.

Heil Hitler!

[littledog]

You can use inserts for effects if you really want to - then you have to use the wet/dry function to adjust the amount. But as said before, it's inefficient, and I've found on many platforms it just doesn't sound as good as the traditional aux send method.

[EDAN]

Originally Posted by littledog

You can use inserts for effects if you really want to - then you have to use the wet/dry function to adjust the amount. But as said before, it's inefficient, and I've found on many platforms it just doesn't sound as good as the traditional aux send method.

You'll find dedicated wet and dry controls on most mid to high end effects units. My Sony DSP-55 has both.

[blindman jones]

Think I should investigate a processor and incorprate into the recorder,
(or read my manual more?)
How much difference is the sound on a decent processor?
Don't need a lot of crazy effects but interested in pre's, compression, de essor Etc.
More the performance and sound quality - than chorus flange distortion - all the effects to add on your voice. Thank you.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by EDAN

You'll find dedicated wet and dry controls on most mid to high end effects units. My Sony DSP-55 has both.

The Fostex doesn't have analog inserts, so he wouldn't be able to use an effects processor this way.

[EDAN]

Originally Posted by MISTERQCUE

No. Inserts are to be used solely for dynamic processors.
Aux rets and sends s/b used for efx processors.

Errrr, ok. So is it a law that they are to be used solely for dynamic processors? If so you have a lot of pro producers breaking it! Part of the problem as noted already is that most home recording people use low end effects unit which don't have seperate wet and dry controls. You can still certainly use the inserts anyway, but having a better effects unit with seperate wet and dry controls makes using the inserts the same as using the sends/rtrs.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by EDAN

Errrr, ok. So is it a law that they are to be used solely for dynamic processors? If so you have a lot of pro producers breaking it! Part of the problem as noted already is that most home recording people use low end effects unit which don't have seperate wet and dry controls. You can still certainly use the inserts anyway, but having a better effects unit with seperate wet and dry controls makes using the inserts the same as using the sends/rtrs.

I have never seen an effects processor that doesn't have a wet/dry control. One of the reasons people don't do it is because you can't (for example) put a stereo reverb on a snare drum by inserting it on the mono track.

But again, as far as giving advice to this guy, with his equipment, inserts are not the way to go.

[blindman jones]

I just read somewhere, " If you add a voice processor to your setup thinking it will mix your tracks themselves, or even make it easier for you to mix them, you'd be fooling yourself - you'd just have a more exspensive recording that doesn't sit well in the mix."

I belive I'll read up on a mic processor for compression Etc.
Other than that mic. techniques and capturing the best recordings.

[MISTERQCUE]

Originally Posted by EDAN

Errrr, ok. So is it a law that they are to be used solely for dynamic processors? If so you have a lot of pro producers breaking it! Part of the problem as noted already is that most home recording people use low end effects unit which don't have seperate wet and dry controls. You can still certainly use the inserts anyway, but having a better effects unit with seperate wet and dry controls makes using the inserts the same as using the sends/rtrs.

Let me clarify as inserts CAN be used for efx but not recommended.

Though you can patch a time-efx processor (such as dig delays, a 'Verb unit or a multi-efx processor) into a channel insert, there a several reasons not to do so. 1st, you have to adjust the proc'sors onboard wet/dry mix ctl to st the level of effect you desire. Many efx proc'sors contain an inversely proportionate wet/dry mix ctl. This means when you incr the dry output level, you also decrease the wet level and vice-verse. That type of control may be suitable for mono efx like chorus and flanging but generally, you want a fixed
50/50 mix of wet & dry. However, it is extremely difficult to adjust the mix on delays or 'Verbs in a channel insert if your processor doesn't allow independent control of both the wet & dry output levels.

For example, you want to raise the 'Verb level on a vocal track during mixdown w/o decreasing the amount the signal's dry level in the mix. The efx proc'sor inversely proportionate mix ctl won't enable you to do that, becuase incr'sing the wet using that ctl will lower the dry at the same time, defeating your intended purpose. Also, if you have fader-automation on your mixer, recalling 'Verb scenes/levels is much easier on the boards aux-ret faders than
performing this function manually thru inserts.
Although the best way to process individual trks w. 'Verb, echo and chorus is by using the aux sends, if an xtra efx unit is ever needed for just 1 track, a channel insert can be used. A mono effect can be ret'd to the board's insert-ret jack and the efx processor's wet/dry ctl can be used to certain degree to set levels. It's not the best way, but it's better than not having any more aux sends/rets left.

EDIT>>>>>

I forgot to add there's one catch mono efx in a channel insert; unless the track's dry signal returns to it's channel insert, you will not hear any audio on the original channel, because the mixer's insert send is basically normaled to it's insert return. If the normal is broken by plugging a cable into the insert jack and the signal is not ret'd to the insert jack, the channel's dry signal will not reappear on that channel fader (unless you patch your insert ret/send to a half normaling patch bay). Simply too much trouble using the channel inserts for efx processors.

[blindman jones]

Good point I just read that in my manual.

( " You will not hear any audio on the original channel " )

[brendandwyer]

One way that i've found to bring vocals out is double tracking. As long as you do it well, it really thickens the vocals. You could also mult the vox track, delay the multed track slightly, it will achieve the same (albeit more mechanical sounding) effect.