brighten up jumbo gibson acoustic

[daav]

Lately, been doing some projects with a friend who has a J-180 or some similiar model gibson acoustic (I forget if that is the exact model) but it is a hugantic jumbo body. My room is pretty well treated, lots of auralex at most reflections points, a few fiberclass bass traps inthe corner, though it could use more. Playing style is strummed, with some runs here and there. Mic selection is:

Octava 319
MXL 603 s (x2)
EV RE27
sm57
sm58
Through DMP3 or Focusrite Penta Platinum (with built in compression). Into a layla 24/96 and then into cubase.

Anyway i think the tone of this beast is below the $1200+ procetag, it is great for live playing, lots of projection, but i find it really boomy and flat, and that is how the recordings have been so far. I've done XY with the 603s, used the 319, and a single 603s in a few spots and findt he mono track pointed at the 12th fret, away from the soundhole to be best, but damn if it still isn't horribly dull to my ears. Maybe it is too close, at about 4-6 inches.

And every time he so much as touches the top of the guitar while playing it sounds like a (unwanted, bad sounding) drum. Any technique suggestions? Lacking that, any eq suggestions? I can't seem to get much better than what i would count as a scratch track out of this so far.

Thanks for any suggestions, I'm still experiimenting, but I may post a sample later.

Daav

[c7sus]

Stick one of those 603's about the height of the guitarists' shoulder or ear, capsule facing toward the floor. You're looking for the "sweet spot" a couple inches behind the bridge and a couple inches in front of the soundboard.

The mic is gonna be about 16-20 inches above the bridge. You're trying to capture what the guitarist is hearing.

How old are the strings on this beast???????

Some Phospher Bronze 80/20's should brighten up the tone of the guitar.

The octava and the RE20 are pretty well-known as being "dark" (319) and especially good on deep tones/voices (RE20). I would imagine the 603's to be the "brightest" mics in your locker.

[JazzMang]

Take the guitar to a luthier (unless you're very good at messing with the guitar) and have him check the guitar out. Bad contact between saddle and body makes these jumbo bodies sound like what you are describing.

Also, try some diff. strings like Elixir Nanowebs (which have a light coating that doesn't dull the sound)

[gummblefish]

i play a gibson j200. I would recomend puting country gold strings on the guitar, probably 12's or 13's. This definetly suits the j200, not sure about yours but i would bet on it. Of course every guitar is different. I use Mxl 603's on mine. Usually one at ear level (right ear) and one at the twelth fret.
Also play it in a live room, probably with hardwood floors. That will definetly brighten things up a bit.

[daav]

Thanks guys, i will try the over the shoulder technique nexxt time we record.

i have already asked about the strings, the guitar belongs to my friend, so i will push him for a string change too. I'll see if i can get him to try out the strings suggested.


Thanks guys!
Daav

[punkin]

Originally Posted by c7sus

Stick one of those 603's about the height of the guitarists' shoulder or ear, capsule facing toward the floor. You're looking for the "sweet spot" a couple inches behind the bridge and a couple inches in front of the soundboard.

The mic is gonna be about 16-20 inches above the bridge. You're trying to capture what the guitarist is hearing.

How old are the strings on this beast???????

Some Phospher Bronze 80/20's should brighten up the tone of the guitar.

The octava and the RE20 are pretty well-known as being "dark" (319) and especially good on deep tones/voices (RE20). I would imagine the 603's to be the "brightest" mics in your locker.

Good call, sounds like you might be a little close. The neck mic can be closer but the body mic is going to be deep sounding. That close you're probably getting into the proximity effect of the mic(s). The 603's seem to be the best option you have available. They really do shine on acoustic guitars.

[mrface2112]

well, FWIW, in my experience the majority of the tone will come from the player and their technique (or lack thereof). sounds like you've got somewhat of a "lack thereof" problem from what you've described.

first and foremost, get him to stop beating on the thing. ;-)

next, try different strings--brands, compositions, gauges, etc. some strings are brighter sounding than others. that might help.

i'm not surprised that the 12th fret spot sounds the "best" for what you're looking for, and also not surprised that near the soundhole sounds the worst. i would start with the mics up the neck and near the lower bout (the other side of the bridge) and work from there.

try this when positioning mics: have him seated and playing, with the mic channels open and you wearing headphones. carry the mic around the room in your hand until you come to a spot where you like the tone. put the mic there. do the same with the 2nd mic (if needed). be creative--try way up high near the ceiling, way down low towards the floor, close, far, you name it.

that said, do you even need a stereo recording? as you noted, often a mono recording will do the job.

if using the penta, make sure the eq and comp are both OUT of the chain. compression can often really boomy up an acoustic guitar. resort to eq and compression as "fixes" only in a last resort.

as for mics......the 603's are the brighter mics in your list. if brighter is your goal, i'd start with them. i get great results on my Martin D15 with a pair of 603's.


but seriously, it has to sound good in the room first if you want to have any chance of it sounding good recorded. find that spot and put the mic there.


cheers,
wade

[EleKtriKaz]

Like some other people mentioned, the strings are a big part of it. Newer strings will have a lot more definition and brightness to them. I have a very large-bodied acoustic as well (Taylor 814ce...the grand concert body style), and I recently switched to 12s from previously using 13s. That brightened things up perfectly for me.

As far as mics go, with that list the first thing I would try would be the 603s in ORTF about 1 ft to 1.5 ft out. If you're not getting enough body from that setup, then throw either the RE27 or the 319 in the center about 6" off.

If all else fails, have him use a thicker pick. I know guitar players are sensitive about their picks, but I can't tell you how many times a player couldn't get the part to sound right and then as soon as I have them try it with a thicker pick it works. The pick can make a huge difference in clarity, definition, how even the performance is, and volume.

Just reread your original post...you said your room is treated with Auralex. That could be part of your problem. Auralex is strictly absorption, no diffusion. If you have too much absorption, you may be suffocating the sound a bit. You may not have enough natural reflection and diffusion in your room. Try taking down some of the Auralex and see if that helps.

[rcane]

I recorded a guitar player that hit the top/pickguard with his hand and pick which added some serious clicking to the track. We ended up taping some thin foam or cloth to the area his pick & hand were hitting and that got rid of a bunch of the clicking. It didn't seem to hurt the sound of his guitar that much--whatever we lost was worth losing to get rid of the clicking which was really distracting.

[giraffe]

the 20 may be dark, but the 27 is not.
with the hf switch on "flat" and not "cut" give it a try, less proximity with this mic than the others. and usually gives a very "focused" mid sound to my ear.

maybe it work, maybe it don't, but i'd try it.

actually, if you click my sig the song "silent spirit" the acu is a jumbo epiphone recorded ms with a 27 and a nt2a. true, some of the hi's are from the nt2a, but i occasionally find the 27 very useful on acu.

oh, and maybe try a thinner pick.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by giraffe

but i occasionally find the 27 very useful on acu.

i've used my RE38 on acoustic before--it's a close cousin to the re27, and yeah, in some cases it can definitely be the right sound for the track.

and i try not to mess with the player's technique TOO much......but sometimes you have to correct bad habits. problem is, you're not gonna overcome 20 years of bad habits in a 2-hour tracking session.


cheers,
wade