Really strugglin to get bass drum thru the mix

skiz · #1 05-01-2006

Hey guys,

Like the topic says, im really having a hard time to get the bass drum to cut through the mix. I am a newbie home recorder, and was wondering if any one had any advice.

I have used compression and a limiter, and added a boost to the higher range to try and get it to cut thru.. however this still does not work..

Tryed to mix to the bass drum, keepin it loud and bringin everything else down. This works untill mastering. When i apply compression to the whole track it brings up the valleys and the bass drum gets lost any way.

Any one know how i can try to rectify this?

Fletcher · #2 05-01-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiz

Any one know how i can try to rectify this?

Probably not... but I'll try to shoot you a couple of tidbits that might help...

First, lighten up on compressing the damn thing. If your drummer had a "velocity" issue where some hits are louder than others then you may want to add a limiter to keep those [and only those] extra loud hits from dominating the track... otherwise the kik should be "present" and accounted for without compression.

Now... I don't know what kind of stuff you're working on... but sometimes the Kik drum wants to be nothing more than an accent to the bass note on 1 & 3 [when the kik hits] and not an instrument unto itself. I've heard more than a few perfectly good songs fucked up with the "tick" of kik drum that was actually unnecessary.

Remember, you're graded on the final product... not the sound of one drum!!

From there, you may have a phase issue with the bass and or other midrange instruments clouding the kik drum picture. Sometimes sliding the bass back like 10-12ms into the pocket will get the kik drum to come through a bit better [it'll also add a bit of 'chicken grease' to the vibe of the presentation so be careful... the song I'm working on at the moment needed the bass pulled up by 11ms before it sat right in the track... but that is a story for another day].

Make sure your bass and kik drum center on two different notes on the bottom. Often I'll like my kik to center at around 80Hz and the bass at either 60ish or 100-125ish. Sometimes the kik wants to live under the bass... sometimes the bass wants to live under the kik drum... experiment, find out who wants what real estate... then give it to them.

Last... watch the compression over the mix bullshit... and for goodness sakes... use a real compressor!! If you're using someking of Waves L2 horseshit you're going to be fucking nowhere in a big hurry. There are indeed some units that can be useful in a "2 buss" application... none of them come in 'software' form.

Best of luck with all you do.

peopleperson · #3 05-01-2006

Bass can be real difficult. In my opinion, bass is up there with vocals as far as tracks you want to put your best pre's on. I used to have to eq like crazy to get bass to work a lot, but after I invested a little money in a good Sans Amp bass DI, it was all so much easier.

Post a sample and we can help you further.

Fletcher · #4 05-01-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleperson

after I invested a little money in a good Sans Amp bass DI, it was all so much easier.

Which was it?

Good? ...or a Sans Amp bass DI?

From my experience it would be one or the other... as always, YMMV.

skiz · #5 05-01-2006

Im using Waves RComp for compression and L2 for limiting.

Its my first venture into recording so its a huge learning curve..

When you say that the kick and the bass need to live at different freq's, do i do this by EQ?

I do want the kick to cut through more. As it is, i could probably remove it and it wouldnt make too much of a difference in some of the louder parts.

How do i slid the kick back like you said?

Sorry if my questions are newb, but i am learning..

bubbagump · #6 05-01-2006

The key thing to think about in a kick drum sound is the lowend thump and then the attack. The sound is as defined byt he attack as the thump. So if you find yourself cranking the kick drum and still no joy, you probably are missing attack. The attack is the slap of the beater against the head and is usually in the 1000-2500hz range. So take a look around that area and see if you are getting a good slap along with your thump.

gcapel · #7 05-01-2006

I assume your putting the mic outside of the drum. I would place the kick mic inside the drum to give it a more punchy sound rather than outside giving it a boomy thug sound. phase reverse also. The drawing is how i do it.

jonnyc · #8 05-01-2006

Do yourself a huge favor. Find someone in your area that can tune a drum like a mofo and hire them to tune it. Then, make sure your mic is inside the kick, even if that means cutting a hole in the reso head, get that fucking mic in there. If you get good placement, with a decent mic, and a decently tuned drum you should get a great kick sound with maybe a splash of eq at 2khz and a small bump at 120hz. Of course those number are just approximate and every one plays different so it may be for you but it's always worked for me. And oh yeah make sure your drummer doesn't hit the kick like a fairy.

I used to put all kinds of multiband compression and 6+ bands of eq and everything you can think of to get a decent sound. Then I hired someone to tune the kit for me and it's just been ridiculously easy since then. Two bands of eq and thats it.

skiz · #9 05-01-2006

How much of a help will reversing the phase be?

Ive done pretty much everything thats been said so far without avail.

Boosts in the hi/mid region to get the attack of the beater. Didnt work. Would like to try out the phase issue thing with the bass guitar. This just done with EQin the two tracks to diff freqs?

btw my mic is inside the kick. I am happy with the sound of the kick. just it does not cut thru. Using a Beta 52a btw. Dont have an extra mic to mic the batter head tho. Will hopefully get another Audix I5 to do this in the future.

Fletcher · #10 05-01-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by skiz

How much of a help will reversing the phase be?

If it was recorded out of polarity it could be quite helpful... if it was recorded in correct polarity it could do more harm than help. Try flipping the polarity and see if it helps or hinders.

FWIW I have a little over 30 years of professional engineering experience [I'm not necessarily proud of that... but it's a fact none the less]. In those 30 years I have found that engineering boils down to a pretty simple process.

Know what all of the knobs [functions, etc.] do... then work your ass off to touch as few of them as possible. If you can get away without EQ'ing something... try to not EQ it. If you can get away without comrpessing something... try to not compress it. If you can get away without limiting something... try to not limit it.

The mantra: WHEN IN DOUBT LEAVE IT OUT will never steer you wrong.

You have a whole lot of things with which you're working... you seem like you're fairly new to the whole process. Keep it simple as possible and you will probably come out with better results than if you work too hard adding a bunch of stuff that will serve little purpose other than confusing you.

With all due respect, it takes years to really get a handle on what to do with a 2 bus limiter. I would highly recommend you leave the mix bus uncompressed and unlimited... work on the balances and textures that comprise your song.

I'm about to go dive back into a song I was working on last Friday evening. I used damn near every one of my 18" patch cables patching in equipment [I mix in the analog domain... it sounds better for the kind of work I do... plus I get to charge the client more because they see all the knobs in my room and think I'm a fucking genius... but I digress].

The first thing I'm going to do when I walk into my control room is pull out ever patch cable and start again. I was "overengineering" the mix... it is starting to suck big time. It's time to break it down and start again. Now I know all the shit I did to it... and will very likely repeat a damn good portion of those patches. I also know which sounds I need to attack in a different manner... and I also know where I'm going to want to return things besides where they're returning at the moment.

The bottom line is don't be afraid to tear it all down to it's original form and start again. The bottom line is just because you have a boatload of power and capability to throw at a mix... it doesn't mean you should.

Best of luck with all you do.

Peace.

noisedude · #11 05-01-2006

Really good advice from Fletcher in this thread. Time after time I find myself sat fiddling with a mix for hours, then sit back and look at my console view and there are a dozen compressors loaded, maybe twenty EQs, a couple of reverbs and maybe a flanger, exciter or delay. The truth is it rarely sounds much better than when I started, because my original sounds weren't too bad when I captured them.

Resist over-processing at all costs ... not because a polished sound isn't good, but because you can't get a polished sound. It'll just end up a mess of pumping and screwing with your sounds.

I think quite a lot of the time people are using compression rather than setting a little automation, or maybe a little old-fashioned riding of the faders. The truth is that a little compression can help a track 'gel' ... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't turn the vocal down on the loud bits of the chorus!

YMMV.

jonnyc · #12 05-01-2006

And on top of what Fletcher and Noise said, if you've done everything to no avail as you say then the problem is either A)poorly tuned drum or B)the drummer sucks.

TuoKaerf · #13 05-01-2006

If you're stuck with what you've recorded, try this-

Boost A LITTLE BIT at 2-3K ish

Remove a little 300-400Hz

Add a little 60-80Hz

gcapel · #14 05-02-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by noisedude

Really good advice from Fletcher in this thread. Time after time I find myself sat fiddling with a mix for hours, then sit back and look at my console view and there are a dozen compressors loaded, maybe twenty EQs, a couple of reverbs and maybe a flanger, exciter or delay. The truth is it rarely sounds much better than when I started, because my original sounds weren't too bad when I captured them.

Resist over-processing at all costs ... not because a polished sound isn't good, but because you can't get a polished sound. It'll just end up a mess of pumping and screwing with your sounds.

I think quite a lot of the time people are using compression rather than setting a little automation, or maybe a little old-fashioned riding of the faders. The truth is that a little compression can help a track 'gel' ... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't turn the vocal down on the loud bits of the chorus!

YMMV.

Amen to that... I try to go light on any individual track additives. Time and time again I find it's better to get it right before it is recorded.

noisedude · #15 05-02-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcapel

Amen to that... I try to go light on any individual track additives. Time and time again I find it's better to get it right before it is recorded.

Don't get me wrong ... life is not ideal and neither are recording sessions, but quite frankly most of us here have no developed amazing mixing chops so it's best to get as much right as possible as early on as possible.

If Mutt Lange can turn out glittering pop music, that's all well and good. But it doesn't mean that if I spend three days riding the fader on every single note of a lead vocal, that it will sound anything like what he produces.

Same goes for plugins ... I have the Waves Diamond bundle and quite frankly most of them sound pretty marginal at best. I only use L3 for its dithering now, because it always screws up my mixes otherwise!!!

grn · #16 05-02-2006

did you try panning some of the other instruments so it has it's own little home?

noisewreck · #17 05-02-2006

Solo the kick and the bass together and make sure they don't fight with one another. If they do, decide what each contributes and EQ accordingly. Like TuoKaerf mentioned cutting around 300-400Hz will do wonders in bringing the kick into focus.

ap-emerger · #18 05-03-2006

Being a former Pro Drummer & now project home recorder, I always insist on very few B.S.-goodies before the drum hits the tape, so to speak. Take off the front drum head, shove in a pillow, put the mic 4 inches away from where the mallet hits the head & about 2-4 inches off-set to the left or right. If the drummer knows how tune tune his kit (and he should), this should be an easy fix. Try not to put too much post-production on the drums. Hell, maybe just a bit of limiter to ease out the "too hards" if that happens. After the drums are on tape, then and only then should you be thinking about all the funky out-board, effects stuff.

Just my 2 cents

AP