question on tubes and marshalls

[FALKEN]

yo...

I just got a Marshall 50 watt tube amp used. on volume of 3.5 it is very distorted... nothing wrong with it..I would just like to get a cleaner sound out of it. would it be worth it to install a different "hardness" of tubes or something? or maybe to switch from EL34's to 6L6's? I have a fender bassman head that gets a sound I like... I was hoping to get basically the same thing but with a 'marshall' flavor...but not necessarily with heavy distortion all the time. any advice is appreciated. by the way it is non-master volume.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

yo...

I just got a Marshall 50 watt tube amp used. on volume of 3.5 it is very distorted... nothing wrong with it..I would just like to get a cleaner sound out of it. would it be worth it to install a different "hardness" of tubes or something? or maybe to switch from EL34's to 6L6's? I have a fender bassman head that gets a sound I like... I was hoping to get basically the same thing but with a 'marshall' flavor...but not necessarily with heavy distortion all the time. any advice is appreciated. by the way it is non-master volume.

WHat amp is it?

For a non master volume you need to roll off your gutiars volume to clean up the sound. (and don't be afraid to go all the way down to even a hairline before your guitar gets muted)

[FALKEN]

it is a 1987x. yes that works but I would like the sound to be fairly clean without having to turn down.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

it is a 1987x. yes that works but I would like the sound to be fairly clean without having to turn down.

Then you bought the wrong amp.

[Farview]

If you could get it rebiased to take KT88 tubes, you wouldn't have to worry about the power section breaking up, at least not before your ears fall off. However, that won't do anything about the preamp section distorting. For that, you would need to get some 12at7 or 12au7 tubes.

Have you tried pluggin into the low input. That might be your best bet. Marshalls don't really get all that clean.

[ez_willis]

I have 6- 6L6's I'll sell you if you're looking.

[rushofblood]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

I have 6- 6L6's I'll sell you if you're looking.

you'll have to rebias for those too, so be careful

[killmachine]

hey EZ_willis what type of tubes are they I'm actually looking to get some.. I hate to but in on this one,,,, sorry guys

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Outlaws

Then you bought the wrong amp.

ok it could be...

I have a 30 watt jtm 45 that was hand built that sounds great but has the same problem...when I bought this one I figured it would be almost the same sound but at 50 watts it should be as clean as the other 50 watt amps I have played...(many fenders, crate, peavey)....only it is not....the jtm 45 has KT66's.......I wanted EL34's but I really can't tell the difference. I think the guy might have put really hot tubes in there but idunno. why would marshall make an amp that only does heavy distortion and not clean? it makes no sense. these marshalsl were designed to be bass amps. I am not yet convinced this is the wrong amp. i just need some diretion on how to tweak it a bit.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

ok it could be...

I have a 30 watt jtm 45 that was hand built that sounds great but has the same problem...when I bought this one I figured it would be almost the same sound but at 50 watts it should be as clean as the other 50 watt amps I have played...(many fenders, crate, peavey)....only it is not....the jtm 45 has KT66's.......I wanted EL34's but I really can't tell the difference. I think the guy might have put really hot tubes in there but idunno. why would marshall make an amp that only does heavy distortion and not clean? it makes no sense. these marshalsl were designed to be bass amps. I am not yet convinced this is the wrong amp. i just need some diretion on how to tweak it a bit.

KT66's are comparable to EL84's, EL34's are a higher gain tube.
Marshalls were never known for their sparkling clean sound, fenders are. They might have been designed to be bass amps, but that was in the 60's when bass was a muddy, low-endy thing without a lot of definition. It was also common for entire bands to plug into the same multi-channel amp. Volume wasn't as big a deal as it is now. The reason you get a 30 watt Marshall is so you can get it to distort without shaking the building. If you want a Marshall that will be clean at higher volumes, you need a 100 watt version. It still won't be as clean as a Fender and nothing is as clean as a Crate.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

ok it could be...

I have a 30 watt jtm 45 that was hand built that sounds great but has the same problem...when I bought this one I figured it would be almost the same sound but at 50 watts it should be as clean as the other 50 watt amps I have played...(many fenders, crate, peavey)....only it is not....the jtm 45 has KT66's.......I wanted EL34's but I really can't tell the difference. I think the guy might have put really hot tubes in there but idunno. why would marshall make an amp that only does heavy distortion and not clean? it makes no sense. these marshalsl were designed to be bass amps. I am not yet convinced this is the wrong amp. i just need some diretion on how to tweak it a bit.

Thats wrong. The 1987x was not a bass amp. It was one I know, but not the 1987x. Your amp was never designed to play clean. Your JTM45 was a cpoy of the Fender Bassman. Are you plugged into the low input channel also?
I wouldn't rebias for new tubes like 6L6 becuase even though they will give new character to the amp, they WILL NOT turn it into a Fender...nor will they make it much more clean in requards to what you want.
That amp is a rock amp. Since you have a clean amp you say, bet an A/B/Y pedal maybe.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by killmachine

hey EZ_willis what type of tubes are they I'm actually looking to get some.. I hate to but in on this one,,,, sorry guys

Groove Tube GT-6L6GC.

send me a private message if you need anymore details.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Outlaws

Thats wrong. The 1987x was not a bass amp. It was one I know, but not the 1987x.

from what I understand the plexi was a copy of the bassman and also designed to be a bass amp. I was under the impression that the 1987x was a re-issue of the jmp-50 from 1974 when they switched the plexi amps over to a circuit board. the faceplate, controls, and inputs are almost identical to the jmp-50.....i have also heard of a jtm-50..don't know if that was actually made by marshall at some point or if that is something the cloners came up with and the 1987x is marshall's response to that. maybe I should trade it for the 100 watt HW edition.... I thought 50 watts would be enough...actually to be honest I just tried the low input and it was wayy better but the low end response is still way too strong in relation to the higher strings. the jtm 45 I have is similar but not as pronounced.

[DogFood]

I suspect if you replace the EL34's with 6L6's and change the pre amp tubes to what the person listed previously you will be closer to your goal of another Fender. Heck, get another Fender.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

from what I understand the plexi was a copy of the bassman and also designed to be a bass amp. I was under the impression that the 1987x was a re-issue of the jmp-50 from 1974 when they switched the plexi amps over to a circuit board. the faceplate, controls, and inputs are almost identical to the jmp-50.....i have also heard of a jtm-50..don't know if that was actually made by marshall at some point or if that is something the cloners came up with and the 1987x is marshall's response to that. maybe I should trade it for the 100 watt HW edition.... I thought 50 watts would be enough...actually to be honest I just tried the low input and it was wayy better but the low end response is still way too strong in relation to the higher strings. the jtm 45 I have is similar but not as pronounced.

Well, the bassman isn't really a fantastic clean bass amp to start with. The reason Marshall copied it was becuase of the characteristics it game off when a guitar was plugged in. So they took what they like and fixed what they didn't. Hence no longer a 'bass amp'.

But it was never designed for clean at all. It was 100% British rock. The amp will sound bad at anything below about 2 on the volume knob simply becuase the amp isn't working much. It needs to open up and that requires volume and rolling off the guitars volume (if you want a clean sound).

Do what ever you want or whatever is being suggested, but even a 100 watt verion won't be much cleaner. The difference in the two volume wise is miniscule. Yes, the 100 watter will have a bit more headroom and bottom end, but it will still be a broken up clean sound, not a pristine clean. Thats just how Mashall is.

I would suggest this....play anything before you buy it.

[Farview]

I would take it back and get something more appropriate for what you are trying to do. Getting the 100 watt and/or changing the tubes won't turn it into a good clean amp. Marshalls just don't do clean (not the tube ones anyway)

[FALKEN]

well..

I have been playing the low gain input and I have to say that this amp is freaking awesome. and gets me 90% of the way there. it is giving me the right amound of breakup now....and its good to know the high gain inputs are there if I need that sound...I bet one could use a switch pedal for a boost... I am really liking it now...thanks for the help there.

the only thing I would want to improve is the frequency response...it seems to have some harsh sounds around 2k or something...that's a guess I am not trained very well with frequencies but its an annoying upper frequency bite. and the bass is a bit ridiculous but I think I can work through that. thanks again...and as always any ideas are helpful... Also I have some spare tubes here if that would make a diff....I got some 12ax7 backups (GT)...and some EL34 (svelt) and 6L6 (GT) backups also... here is what is in it now: A matched and balanced trio of JJ/Tesla pre-amp tubes (1 ECC803s & 2 ECC83s) and a matched pair of National brand, made in Germany EL34’s. also those are brand new so they might need to just be broken in or something...

I'm not really sure of the differences but I have always played 12ax7's...

?

[Farview]

12AX7's are ECC83's. There is an american and a european numbering system. The ECC82 is a 12AT7. El34's are also 6CA7's, 6550 is KT88, 6L6 is 7027A, etc...

[FALKEN]

is the ECC803 like a GZ34 rectifier tube or something?

how would these brands compare sound-wise..the JJ/Tesla vs GT and the german EL34 vs sveltana?

I think what I need is a little more warm, a little less bite...

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

is the ECC803 like a GZ34 rectifier tube or something?

how would these brands compare sound-wise..the JJ/Tesla vs GT and the german EL34 vs sveltana?

I think what I need is a little more warm, a little less bite...

If you are swapping the same type of tube (12ax7 of brand x with another 12ax7 of brand y), I don't think you find that much of a difference until you have had the amp for a while and really know the sound in and out. YMMV

And for what its worth, EL34 has less of that top end than 6L6 IMO.

This might sound stupid, but you can't turn the Treble knob down a hair to get rid of the 'bite'? What about your guitars tone knob? I think I know the 'bite' you are refering to and I was able to calm it with my tone knob.

[FALKEN]

turning the treble down helps but I think that the offensive frequency is more narrow than the high shelf eq...

I have found that different tubes can make a night and day difference but I have always just told an amp tech what sound I was going for and let them decide....only I haven't had a tech in a few years so I don't know.....

ok for now I will assume it is the preamp tubes and see what I can do about that... am I correct in assuming the third tube is a rectifier tube and I should probably leave that one as is?

[Farview]

The tube next to the power tubes is the inverter tube.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

am I correct in assuming the third tube is a rectifier tube and I should probably leave that one as is?

Well if the tubes are almost dead then they will be a night and day difference.

The recifier tube is generally fatter than the other tubes and almost as big or bigger than the powertubes. The thing is though that your amp doesn't have a recifier tube.
Again, back to the 'bite'.....you are aware of the routing you can do with this amp right? You have hi and low inputs with bright and normal inputs for each of those. You can use a jumper cable between them so you can mix the inputs. http://www.guitar.com.au/amplifiers/...87xinputs.html

[mx_mx]

Originally Posted by Farview

I would take it back and get something more appropriate for what you are trying to do. Getting the 100 watt and/or changing the tubes won't turn it into a good clean amp. Marshalls just don't do clean (not the tube ones anyway)

Are you saying my mg100hdfx does good clean?

[Farview]

Originally Posted by mx_mx

Are you saying my mg100hdfx does good clean?

I haven't had a chance to play every variation of Marshall that has come out. There have been a couple that did clean up well, but I don't know which models they were. (or if they are still made)