Active or Passive Monitors

[jaykeMURD]

I know the difference.
Active = Internal Amplifier
Passive = Unpowered

There's all the little types in between... bi-amped, tri-amped, semi-passive, etc.
I'm not looking for a particular pair or brand. I just want to know. For the "budget" studio, say, no more than 450 bucks to spare, what will sound better on average? Is there no difference? It's logically cheaper to buy active monitors, but do they sound better or worse than ones with external amplification?

[Ethan Winer]

Jayke,

> what will sound better on average? <

There are many advantages of active monitors for the typical project studio, besides a simpler hookup with less pieces to carry if you ever do remotes:

Active speakers are typically bi-amped, which often yields a cleaner sound with less distortion. And bi-amping offers more ways to optimize the crossover performance because it uses active rather than passive components. Also, the power amps will be well matched to the speakers, they won't have a fan, and the wires from amp to speaker are shorter which improves damping. But to me the overwhelming advantage, as implemented in the Mackie series anyway, is that the woofer cone's motion can be included within the power amp's feedback loop to reduce distortion by a significant amount.

--Ethan

[COOLCAT]

here's my take.
I agree with the technical aspect metioned.
a monitoring chain is not the place to add warmth. Leave the beautiful Tube harmonics for Pre-Amps and Guitar amps...monitoring chain as "mirror like as possible.

JakeM, talking $450 range is important to note.
Can you get a better Active or Passive setup for $450.

my system:
1) Active YSM1P. Love 'em, less space. Its clean, organized...DAW + Actives. Simple is beautiful. The Oscilliscope physics data would lean towards Active,all else being equal.
2) My Passive 150Watt amp+ Misc speakers is great too.
Add a Speaker selector for A/Bing. $75 Adcom & you can be a speaker nut with 6 pairs of monitors!! for $450 or less.

Passive Speakers are a super-great $$ deal right now.
Example:
JBL Control 5- Blue model, not the standard orange.
Orange Retail $500pair, Blue probabobly were $650pair..
nabbed some used for $100.
I sold them to Guitar Center for $100, they put 'em on the shelf for $259...
(i bought them back at $100, my mistake).

PART 2: a friend just went from passive to active. sent me his mixes pre and post new active monitors..a fun blinfdfold test....NO Difference could be found. go buy a CD BMwerx, Brownstone music...it's really great stuff and shows how good a HR CD can sound.proofs in the pudding.and you probably won't be able to tell which was mixed on what?

hope this helps...love the monitor discussions.

[TheDewd]

Here is my take on this...

1) A separate amp gives you more flexibility. Buying quality $1500 passive monitors and a $500 amp now and then switching to a nice $5000 Classé amp in a couple of years yields more return on your initial investment than buying $2000 active monitors.

2) Speaker designers are better at speaker design. Amp designers are better at amp design. Period. You can't expect Dynaudio amps to be on par with Bryston.

3) With active monitors, you are stuck with the power that's in the box. If you want louder that loud, well sorry you can't have it. A properly designed mid field and far field monitor will handle many watts so you can overpower them without problems. More often than not, active monitors are NOT loud enough for me, as I like things LOUD!

4) The woofer is damped by the low output resistance of the amplifier and proper crossover design. All Mackie did is implement another feedback loop. Many audiophile wil tell you that too much negative feedback introduces a characteristic harshness to the sound.

5) Many active monitors use a class H or G low frequency amplifiers to lower the bulkiness of the power supplies (thus weight of the unit). Class H and G amps have to be severly corrected with negative feedback in order to offer similar performance to a good class AB (or AB+B) design.

6) Transient quality and response depends largely on the current capability of the amplifier. A separate quality amplifier like a Bryston of Hafler is likely to have at least twice the current capability of most active monitors.

7) The argument about matching amps to driver is mock to me. It's just a simple way to say "hey we are too lazy to properly design a speaker box, so we will adapt our amps to the speakers so that it sounds good".

Just my 2 cents worth...as an amp designer I might be biased, but I think buying a hammer from a computer printer maker is not going to go a long way. Amp design is an expertise (as is speaker design). Not many companies can match the quality of having a nice amp to a nice speaker.

[jaykeMURD]

Thanks fellas. Think I'll be sticking with actives...for one plain and simple reason: cost.
I don't need the best, not can I afford it!

[Ethan Winer]

Dewd,

For someone who claims to be an amp designer and, I presume, an EE, you made some pretty surprising comments.

> You can't expect Dynaudio amps to be on par with Bryston. <

Assuming the folks at Dynaudio have enough money to hire a competant amp designer, what exactly would be inferior?

> Many audiophile wil tell you that too much negative feedback introduces a characteristic harshness to the sound. <

I'd love to see some science to back that up. Please be very specific!

> Class H and G amps have to be severly corrected with negative feedback in order to offer similar performance to a good class AB (or AB+B) design. <

What's wrong with negative feedback? Again, please be very specific. I'd love to learn exactly how audio quality is damaged by the use of negative feedback, and why.

--Ethan

[jaykeMURD]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Dewd,

For someone who claims to be an amp designer and, I presume, an EE, you made some pretty surprising comments.

> You can't expect Dynaudio amps to be on par with Bryston. <

Assuming the folks at Dynaudio have enough money to hire a competant amp designer, what exactly would be inferior?

> Many audiophile wil tell you that too much negative feedback introduces a characteristic harshness to the sound. <

I'd love to see some science to back that up. Please be very specific!

> Class H and G amps have to be severly corrected with negative feedback in order to offer similar performance to a good class AB (or AB+B) design. <

What's wrong with negative feedback? Again, please be very specific. I'd love to learn exactly how audio quality is damaged by the use of negative feedback, and why.

--Ethan

LOL
For a second there I thought you were referring to me!

[COOLCAT]

Originally Posted by jaykeMURD

I'm not looking for a particular pair or brand. I just want to know. For the "budget" studio, say, no more than 450 bucks to spare, what will sound better on average? Is there no difference? It's logically cheaper to buy active monitors, but do they sound better or worse than ones with external amplification?

what will sound better on average? I can't hear a difference. I think the main difference is in theory and technical design terms.
Can anyone hear a difference????

Is there no difference? Sound wise, I think there is a bigger difference between brands and types than Passive and Active.

Tech papers and physics and materials and science...hell yeah, alot of differneces!! Can't you hear a difference between a 4" port and a 4.5" port!!!
??

It's logically cheaper to buy active monitors, but do they sound better or worse than ones with external amplification?


No, its not really cheaper to buy active.
To buy new with warranty and 30day exchange, Actives is safer bet IMO. the easiest path.
You can listen and then take them back. (read the Home page Monitor post by Dragon)

Cheaper$$$$ My experience is you can get a much higher quality passive used system nowadays, as everyone is dumping them off for "new" Actives.

and I'm an old skeptical gearhead...I've seen this type of "trend" happen with Guitar amplifiers, where everyone dumped those old, dead technology,Vanilla Vinyl Fender Tube amps for the "new" Solid State!!! in the 70's.
All of a sudden people were embarrassed to be seen with old rotty Tube Amps from the 50's and 60's!! Those were for beginners starting out, only they used the cheap old crappy used vanilla vinyl tube amps formt he 50's and 60's bargain area....
Guitar Stores were kind to give you $100 trade in.
I got the new Solid State SAWBUZZ FUZZ New technology!!! I'm COOL!!!

but now those $100 trade in crappy-old dinosaur Vanilla Vinyl Fender tubes amps...well, there' selling for more than the $100.

And speakers too...
many people in large numbers, per all the vinatge mags and threads, now have gone back searching for the Heavy magnets, coils, frames that old Speaker companys used to make, like Weber and Jensens, JBL instead of

the "new" stock- "high tech" "DIGITAL SPEAKERS"...
can be thin framed, paper-foam shit, cost-reduction consumer product made in some 5million square foot plant in a China jungle, that makes 700 brands under the same roof, and can add $100,000 in profit just by changing to a cheap driver or tweeter instead of the original designed WharFenderville driver that made them famous in the first place and got all the hype so the followers choose these.

You'll never see an Advertisement statingsarcasm)

Hey!! We' have the new KRKM-BX YSM3 Speakers out!!!
and we slashed the hell out of the Quality Parts!!! We added really shitty Magnets that will destroy the cheap foam on the cones!!! We also removed the metal plugs and slid in a 100% IC do it all chip, that has no tone...but hey!!! Its saves us a bunch of Money!! Just Rmemeber our old Slogan form 1963!! We used to ensure point to point soldering, but now we just puke shit out in such HUGE numebers we let the customer deal with and bring it back!!!!We've been in Business since 1909!! <place a picture of Eric Clapton holding a guitar>

heeehe

[TheDewd]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

For someone who claims to be an amp designer and, I presume, an EE, you made some pretty surprising comments.

> You can't expect Dynaudio amps to be on par with Bryston. <

Assuming the folks at Dynaudio have enough money to hire a competant amp designer, what exactly would be inferior?

Well, with unlimited funds, time and an excellent design team, it's very possible that the competent guy gets CLOSE the quality of a Bryston. But Dynaudio would have to devote as much time developing those amps as Bryston does and they would have to pick quality (expensive) materials to build them without cutting corners (as Bryston does), which would result in a $10k active monitor. At that price, one is better buying a seperate Bryston and passive Dynaudios... Plus,. A Bryston IS a Bryston. They have their proprietary designs that one cannot duplicate on another commercial amp system.

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

> Many audiophile wil tell you that too much negative feedback introduces a characteristic harshness to the sound. <

I'd love to see some science to back that up. Please be very specific!

> Class H and G amps have to be severly corrected with negative feedback in order to offer similar performance to a good class AB (or AB+B) design. <

What's wrong with negative feedback? Again, please be very specific. I'd love to learn exactly how audio quality is damaged by the use of negative feedback, and why.
--Ethan

Basically, a feedback loop takes a certain time to get involved in the correction process. During that time, the circuit is nearly open-looped. Thus, for very sharp musical transients, the feedback doesn't operate properly, which leads to harshness in the mids due to the open loop response of the amp. That harshness is mostly due to the Miller compensation needed on the open loop amplifier to ensure stability. That compensation introduces a low-order pole that reduces the frequency response of the amp and adds some honkiness.

Of course, feedback amps measure good when using sinusoidal signals, but with transients, the less negative feedback, the faster the response.

[Ethan Winer]

Dewd,

I love a good technical discusssion as much as the next guy, so please take this in the spirit in which it's intended.

> with unlimited funds, time and an excellent design team, it's very possible that the competent guy gets CLOSE the quality of a Bryston. <

What's the magic with Bryston, and why couldn't someone else make an amp that's just as good? More to the point, in what way is a Bryston better than any other amp? Lower distortion? Flatter response? Less noise? Those are the only things that can possibly vary from one amp to another! I know that Bryston makes great amps. But so do other companies.

> a feedback loop takes a certain time to get involved in the correction process. During that time, the circuit is nearly open-looped. Thus, for very sharp musical transients, the feedback doesn't operate properly <

This makes no sense to me. Every competent amp has a closed-loop response that's flat up to hundreds of KHz. No musical source I know of goes that high, and even if you consider trumpets etc that have acoustical content to high frequencies, none of that comes out the microphone anyway. And even if it did, it would never come out the speaker.

I'm sure you're not suggesting that Bryston amps don't use negative feedback!

If there really were a problem with negative feedback, it would show up in standard distortion and slew rate testing. Or skip the geeky test gear and just use the simple and common "null test" to subtract the output from the input. If a "sharp musical transient" were to sneak through, it would be seen clearly in such a test.

--Ethan

[xstatic]

Interesting conversation here. Just to make a point though, Dynaudio did make some amps years ago that were pretty well accepted. Maybe they stopped because it still wasn't cost effective for them. Also, Bryston certainly isn't the end of the road. In some higher end circles Bryston is actually considered very middle of the road. But, I do also understand the reference. Bryston in my opinion makes an excellent amp with a killer warranty without being ridiculously priced. Basically, to get an amp that is generally accepted as better quality, you are starting to look at amps costing $6000 per channel and higher even.

[Dogman]

On another side note, remember something real important...Home recording, and budget. The original poster listed a budget of $450, so $6000 might be a bit more than he wanted to spend.

[jaykeMURD]

Originally Posted by Dogman

On another side note, remember something real important...Home recording, and budget. The original poster listed a budget of $450, so $6000 might be a bit more than he wanted to spend.

Right, just a little over my budget.....

[COOLCAT]

the way i read it was xstatic said the Bryston is a great unit in that price range and you'd have to spend alot more to significantly make it "better"?

also, if your buying new, from a brick and mortar store like GC, there's really no Passive choices anyway...98% Actives (at least around here locally).

Actives are IN.

[xstatic]

Also, I have seen some Bryston 3b's used in the $450 range, but that won't help you with the speakers themselves though if it doesnt leave any budget left.....

[COOLCAT]

there's some really good deals on Passives if you can find them...
someone sold KRK 7000's for $350 recently. and as I often said I picked up some $500-600 JBLS for $100ish a pair.
(Though I personally didn't like the metal tweeter, I can hear reverb trails much better than on my YSM1p's.)

I saw one pair of Event 20/20 for $199 at GC, passive used the other day.
So from my exp. GC gave me my $100 for the JBL and put them on the shelf at $250...so you could probably get the 20/20 for $100pair, GC probably has $80 into them?
They had a pair of Proto-J Tannoys for $50 a pair a long time ago.
I think they only carry a KRK ST5 around here, passive $99 each retail.

The Bi-Amp theory and physics is real too, the active Eq's...
its all relevant to the materials.
A good test would be Yorkville YSM1p versus a YSMi...same exact speakers and cabinet pretty much. something like that.

just to maintain the confusion, the KRK 7000's and a Bryston would probably be a better setup than many budget Actives as far as quality of materials.

Like Alinco magnets, one main reason Fender quite using them in their speakers was cost reduction...no one ever said they weren't any good.
Alot of their custom-shop boutique orders use this type...and you pay extra.

I like both! New technology is intelligent & great but the old materials, wood, magnets, caps were exceptional and only found in the high dollar lines now.

[TheDewd]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Dewd,

> with unlimited funds, time and an excellent design team, it's very possible that the competent guy gets CLOSE the quality of a Bryston. <

What's the magic with Bryston, and why couldn't someone else make an amp that's just as good? More to the point, in what way is a Bryston better than any other amp? Lower distortion? Flatter response? Less noise? Those are the only things that can possibly vary from one amp to another! I know that Bryston makes great amps. But so do other companies.

> a feedback loop takes a certain time to get involved in the correction process. During that time, the circuit is nearly open-looped. Thus, for very sharp musical transients, the feedback doesn't operate properly <

This makes no sense to me. Every competent amp has a closed-loop response that's flat up to hundreds of KHz. No musical source I know of goes that high, and even if you consider trumpets etc that have acoustical content to high frequencies, none of that comes out the microphone anyway. And even if it did, it would never come out the speaker.

I'm sure you're not suggesting that Bryston amps don't use negative feedback!


--Ethan

I don't particularly like Bryston, but their designs are quite good and acclaimed. For another company to come up with a comparable design would require funds, experience and time. As I said, these monitors would cost more than an amp with passives since the power supply would have to be hefty and all components be premium quality.

Of course, Bryston amps use negative feedback (as shown on their schematics), but they don't use "too much" of it. The problem with feedback happens when you use too much of global feedback. A little one is always welcome. For a class H or G amp to get the same kind of performance that you get from a well designed class AB, you need lots of negative feedback.

About the feedback delay time (and negative feedback in general), I used to think like you do, because I'm more of the "objectivist" kind, but there are many sites that perpetuate this information. Some of those pages are written by experienced amp designers:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...october98.html

http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp2.htm

http://www.wavecor.co.uk/oldtopics.htm (go to Topic 3: negative feedback)

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/

See, the problem with negative feedback is that to be able to improve transient response, you have to increase voltage gain, which in return decreases stability. Now the question is whether one CAN actually hear the feedback punching in and out during transients. I say yes, especially trained audio engineers. Thus, no compromise should be taken when dealing with amplification for monitoring purposes.

[COOLCAT]

Dewd thats alot of reading. good articles on a slow day here.

It seems in lamens terms, negFeedback is just using the inverse at the input, just reduces the volume so you don't clip, in general?

at least you can hear the transients dropping in and out.

I don't know about hearing it, just me?, but like so many things guitar pickups, wood types of Stratocasters,etc.. while I appreciate the craftsmanship it can be very subtle to hear it.

add in the room effect, the speakers, cables, ear wax, placement, cone sizes...i sometimes wonder.

no doubt though, if not for someone improving designs we'd still be listening to unintelligble phone line audio from 1909, as that one link spoke of.


so I'm starting to think, a rockin' setup would be Passive's, Bi-Amped with nice huge Brystons or similar tank-amps? with Active EQ's.

for $450.

[Ethan Winer]

Dewd,

> The problem with feedback happens when you use too much of global feedback. <

If that were true then the effects would be readily measurable, and would show up in standard distortion and slew rate tests.

> I'm more of the "objectivist" kind <

That's really the only way to be if you believe in science. As I do.

> the question is whether one CAN actually hear the feedback punching in and out during transients. I say yes <

You'll have to show some evidence of this. It's not enough to merely "say" anything. In the case of "abused" negative feedback shown in your first link, this would clearly be seen in a standard frequency response or impulse test.

--Ethan

[gummblefish]

Looks like Dewd's got alot of Negative Feedback of his own going on there!

[TheDewd]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Dewd,

> The problem with feedback happens when you use too much of global feedback. <

If that were true then the effects would be readily measurable, and would show up in standard distortion and slew rate tests.

> I'm more of the "objectivist" kind <

That's really the only way to be if you believe in science. As I do.

> the question is whether one CAN actually hear the feedback punching in and out during transients. I say yes <

You'll have to show some evidence of this. It's not enough to merely "say" anything. In the case of "abused" negative feedback shown in your first link, this would clearly be seen in a standard frequency response or impulse test.

--Ethan

Well, this debate is really close to what I was involved in facing SouthSideGlen about preamps and power amplifiers. Glen (nearly) convinced me that specs don't tell ALL there is to how an electronic circuit will sound.

Many people have reported difference in sound quality regarding the amount of negative feedback used. Indeed, I have seen a company that included a KNOB on their power amp labeled "Negative Feedback" with which you could adjust it and hear the difference.

I was the one who said that measured specs say it all, but obviously, Glen provided some really good arguments that lead me to think that there actually ARE some effects that can't be measured.

[Ethan Winer]

Dewd,

> Many people have reported difference in sound quality regarding the amount of negative feedback used. <

Yeah, well many people will report a change in the sound even with an "A/A" test where nothing at all was changed. Think about that!

> I was the one who said that measured specs say it all <

Then you and I are in full agreement. There is nothing that can be heard but not measured. Every time someone has claimed to be able to hear this stuff, once they are challenged to do it in a proper blind test all of a sudden they can no longer hear it.

--Ethan

[Farview]

Originally Posted by TheDewd

I was the one who said that measured specs say it all, but obviously, Glen provided some really good arguments that lead me to think that there actually ARE some effects that can't be measured.

It's not that the effect can't be measured, it's that it isn't measured or somehow misrepresented on the spec sheet. There is a lot of equipment out there with the same specs that sound completly different.

It isn't that the difference can't be measured, it's just that it wasn't.