Using Large Diaphrm Condenser's for OH's?

[gcapel]

I've heard of people doing this from time to time. I just wonder is there anyone hear that uses this method? If so what is the difference than from using regualar small pencil condensers?

[Big Kenny]

SDC's are used for more clarity and LDC's are used for more (ugh) warmth or softness or girth or breadth or wideness or (insert inane, meaningless adjective here)

[chessrock]

Well ... LDC's usually don't have as flat of a response. Because they tend to be tailored, moreless, for vocals ... most of the time they'll have somewhat of a lift in the higher frequencies (around 12 khz). They'll also tend to have a bit of a dip in the midrange, along with a somewhat bolder proximity effect in some cases. Also, due to the larger surface area of the diaphragm, transient response can be just a hair slower.

Sometimes, these very characteristics can work really well for drums. And sometimes they don't work well at all.

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[lucky13]

Also the LDC's have a bigger capsule, which means a lower transient response, which hinder their abilities for picking up a lot of the small details and intricacies you want out of your overheads.

[nuemes]

It's interesting to see LDC's used as overheads at on drumkits at live rock shows every now & then. It seems like a bad idea - I would think feedback would be an issue as an LDC wouldn't be as directional is a SDC.

Anybody else see this and know why it would be done (assuming the club had SDC's available)?

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by nuemes

It seems like a bad idea - I would think feedback would be an issue as an LDC wouldn't be as directional is a SDC.

Huh ???

[Jacobi1211]

well, if you aren't miking your toms it can be a great idea. I do a lot of drum recordings with C3000B's as overheads, and true... they do lack clarity on cymbols, but you should be able to do a little EQing to brighten them up. i happen to like the C3000B's quite a bit... or C414s or 4050's if you can afford them!!! good luck!!!

Jacob

[chessrock]

You guys seriously need to lay off the crack.

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[Big Kenny]

Chess, you are killin' today! Thanx

[surfmaster]

i like the way ldc's sound for a quick drum overhead if im going for a more natural sound and when i do use them i usually dont have to add in any tom mics and only a tad of bass drum.

[jaykeMURD]

As of now, I still prefer dual LDC's for OH. However, I recently got ahold of some SDCs and may be buying a matched pair!

LDC's, on average, will provide more body and depth, as well as picking up more nuances in your playing.

SDC's, as well, will provide a more natural sound, as well as register the higher frequenceies better.

Plus with SDC's, you almost have to mic the toms.

[chessrock]

Alright guys.

So far, we've got one guy who claims feedback to be a problem with LDCs due to less directionaliry.

Another guy who thinks his AKG C3000B is too dark on his cymbals.

And now, I'm hearing another theory about how LDCs pick up more toms than SDCs.

Who lets you guys on this board?
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[bwindsor]

Well guys, I'm doing drum tracks this weekend using the famed "3 mic technique" (see Fletcher) , using 2 Microtech Gefell M930's (OH) with a Sennheiser E602 on the kick, and I already know how this sounds...no problems here with the LDC's on OH!

BW

[Jacobi1211]

well chess, if you were refering to me... i never said that the C3000B's were too dark on my cymbols. i simply suggested that he could give the highs a little boost in the EQing stage. also... i let myself into this board, and yes... on the whole, LDC's do pick up more of the toms natural tone. that's just a fact... who let you into this board??? everyone has an opinion man, and that's what "this board" is for. don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, but maybe you should take this online discussion a little less to heart???

Jacob

[Big Kenny]

Originally Posted by bwindsor

Well guys, I'm doing drum tracks this weekend using the famed "3 mic technique" (see Fletcher) , using 2 Microtech Gefell M930's (OH) with a Sennheiser E602 on the kick, and I already know how this sounds...no problems here with the LDC's on OH!

BW

Where do ya stick those two?

[leddy]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Alright guys.

So far, we've got one guy who claims feedback to be a problem with LDCs due to less directionaliry.

Chessrock, I would normally never question you, but for clarification:

Generally speaking, LDC's are more sensitive than SDC's, right?. I can see where that could make it seem like the pattern is wider on the LDC, all other things being equal.

I've used Oktava MK012's and MK319's as OH's on the same kit and in the same room. The 319's were way less picky about placement. That would seem to indicate a wider pattern, no?.

I'm all for stopping the propagation of myths, so help me on this one please.

[cpl_crud]

Originally Posted by nuemes

It's interesting to see LDC's used as overheads at on drumkits at live rock shows every now & then. It seems like a bad idea - I would think feedback would be an issue as an LDC wouldn't be as directional is a SDC.

If your systems guy has done his job properly, then there should be very little of the FOH energy on the stage, and I can't really think of any reason that you'd be running OHs through the drum wedge.

Remebering that the "live rock shows" that can afford LDCs as overheads have "professionals" (i use that term loosly as I've worked with some fuckwits- like ones that mount C414s upside-down etc) to set up the rig.

Although your comment on the diretionality is BS. You can get omnidiretional SDCs or hypercardiod LDCs. The pickup pattern is more to do with the design of the capsule than just it's size.

For once I don't think chessrock is overreacting....

[formerlyfzfile]

I use my GTMD-1b tubes all the time as over heads ..... but thats primarily bc I dont have a matched pair of SDCs ..... except for the ECM8000 omnis (not matched) but I never got a good sound out of them bc they seemed to overload very easily on drums and, I think, bc I've never had a good room.

They do tend to give me a slightly scooped (mids) sound compared to the couple pair of SDCs I've borrowed and tried......but can give big and open sound.

The openess does tend to require some "padding" to beef up the sound in a dense mx, both in terms of EQ and extra close mics for the toms. I like a 4 mic set up (OHs, K, S) but usually add 1-3 more close mics for the toms for heavier songs.


-mike

[Gamelan]

In my limited experience, it seems like LDC's sound wetter and SDC's sound more dry on overheads. Cymbals or any ringing metals generally seem to prefer SDC's.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by leddy

Generally speaking, LDC's are more sensitive than SDC's, right?. I can see where that could make it seem like the pattern is wider on the LDC, all other things being equal.

Uhhh...No.

It is not the size of the diaphragm, but rather the thickness that determines sensitivity.

Unless you mean that since a 1" diaphragm is .25" wider than a .75" diaphragm, then yes, it's wider. The placement of vents in the backplate allows for cancelation of sound from the back. That determines the pattern.

Originally Posted by leddy

I've used Oktava MK012's and MK319's as OH's on the same kit and in the same room. The 319's were way less picky about placement. That would seem to indicate a wider pattern, no?.

Again...No.

That would indicate different capsules and different frequency curves. Also might be less suseptible to phase issues. Some mics just work better for overheads.

[BrentDomann]

If I remember my details correctly, Glyn Johns' technique calls for a pair of LDCs.

Albeit they are a) cheap and b) more like SDCs that look like LDCs, I use MXL 990s with that sort of a setup. The drummer I record has a massive kit, like 16 drums (plus the cymbals), and found it captured the thump of the room and the overall kit sound better than a gazillion mics on each drum. I did not, however, A/B this with really small-diaphragm mics like some of the Earthworks or even ECM8000s (I returned those--too noisy!).

It's worth a try--but I'd recommend the cheaper LDCs until you are sure your drummer won't whack one of them whilst playing.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Jacobi1211

i let myself into this board, and yes... on the whole, LDC's do pick up more of the toms natural tone. that's just a fact...

That's just dumb.

Originally Posted by leddy

Generally speaking, LDC's are more sensitive than SDC's, right?.

Uh ... no.

Originally Posted by leddy

I can see where that could make it seem like the pattern is wider on the LDC, all other things being equal.

I can also see where I could be boffin' Jessica Alba, all other things being equal. But the sad reality is that ... it ain't happenin.' Maybe in some parallel, bizarro reality where grumpy internet trolls like me get it on with hot pinup model chicks. But unfortunately not in this one.

Guys ... guys ... guys ...

Here's a hint for you: If you don't know what you're talking about, there's nothing wrong with sitting back and learning. Accept your place in this world, for now, humble yourself, and ask questions rather than give incorrect answers on things you clearly don't yet have a grasp of.

The reason I say this is because I believe there should be at least a few places on the net where people might be able to go and get valuable information, without a bunch of falsehoods and inuendos.

If you like a mic, or you like a particular technique, there's nothing wrong with saying: "I like this mic. And here's a technique I use, and I like the results I get ..." etc. etc. But just spewing random crap around as if it were fact is kind of irresponsible. And if you do it, I'm going to call you out on it. If anything, you should be thankful, because you're probably learning something in the process.
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[firby]

The reason I say this is because I believe there should be at least a few places on the net where people might be able to go and get valuable information, without a bunch of falsehoods and inuendos.


############

Precisely. And it is also why I dont often run around here at homerecording.com much anymore. At the same time, it is precisely why I never mention the good sites that I visit while I am here. I don't want a bunch of homewreckers ruining a good forum.

That's a snarky thing to say but for me homerecording.com is really more about hanging out with the guys than recording stuff.

YMMV

[surfmaster]

i always thought the low-mid end hump of a large condenser's frequency response boosted the toms enough in a simple recording for me to not have to close mic toms. maybe im completely wrong. but chess this is the home recording website, made for people who generally dont understand recording like a pro. dont say people shouldent be let on it, it will scare away those who might need advice and are completely misunderstanding a topic, that that of the LDC vs. the SDC.

[Jacobi1211]

well then chess... why don't we close mic toms with SDC's??? i don't know... i guess i'm just dumb??? haha I'm all for learning, (hince the fact that i'm in school right not majoring in music technology) but you seem to think that you are above learning anything as well... hmmmmmmm... sounds a bit hippocritical, wouldn't you say???